Gives you +3. Yeah you got me there - but I think you also know what I mean (+3 BS Attack as a skill on someone with the nearly same BS). And again: A full core of pretty standard HI with BS13 is down to 13, while the Primaris Silverstar shoots you (also full core) on 15 so the gunner in the full core needs BS+3 to actualy cancel/counter the BS-3 (mim vs visor). Bolts could do it. Any other high BS full core with MMS around?
The +BS attack skill would be kind of pointless as there is no test that would be done under BS other than a BS attack, so raw increase of BS is more appropriate, now if a BS skill equivalent to MA existed (and its controversial relation with NBW), then BS Attack (+xBS) would be more logical to exist.
Just give BS(-3) to the Kriza and let him keep the mim -3, fair is fair. The Prime gets: MSV 1, BS(-3), high BS stat, higher BTS stat, Tactical awareness, better movement AND can sit in a core team for 15p more than the cheapest Kriza harris, and can poop all over infiltrators/camo and anything daring to get into riotstopper range. Then the kriza can be a menace in long range FTF shootouts but still have glaring weaknesses. 'Cos let's face it, no one takes it anyway when the Vostok is cheaper, more versatile and has better link options/synergies.
Kriza should get 6-2 and BS Attack (-3) and ideally a MULTI Rifle and HFT (Specialist Operative) profile
I honestly don't know how to explain this other than lazy game design. Take kriza and make them cooler So in non-existent secret point cost formula tactical awarness, MSV1, +1BS, +3BTS, move 6-2, + 1 dam on HMG and big riotstopper = +1 CC, +1PH, +1 burst, mem -3 and total terrain But I'm happy that we are finaly at the point were we've got something new (heh, fullauto lvl2) except of memetism/msv combo. IMHO tunguska already outdated, so there are weird profiles with weird fireteams.Memetism -3 kind of trash now because every solid gunfighter now have msv. It's still mistery for me why we cant get modifiers like mem -1,-2, etc especialy when we've got +1bs for not pure fireteams, I want believe that infinity players can calmly count within 20. But for this you need a person to go through all the armies and make edits, which looks like impossible task for CB) So I'm waiting for the re-release of tunguska and I hope they will give it as much love as for the new moiras.
I'm not sure how I feel about the Prime in terms of game design (it's basically a TAG/GML gear check), but I don't think it poses a balance issue. TB feels very expensive, even if each individual piece looks like a bargain. Striders, Wreckers and Primes are all sweet, but it feels hard to fit them all into a list with sufficient support. Also I feel saying mim-3 is bad because everyone has MSV is a little simplistic. MSV+AP is still a somewhat rare combo. Innate B5 on a HMG is still very good - it's not like the Kriza is a meme tier throw pick, it's not the Al Fasid or Mowang. TJC also has seen some decent love recently with reinfor and aftermath. I'm not an expert on them, but the people I know who do play TJC a bit more seem to be fairly positive on the updates. I think Nomads as a whole have had enough attention for the time being. Factions like ISS and IA in YJ, RTF in Haqq, SAA in PanO and CHA, TAK and USARF in Ari imo are all more deserving of some love from CB.
What a wonderful world. In one thread people prooving that kriza unreal strong even now, but here everyone saying that prime is fine. Also i dont know where is problem with making TB lists, when they've got 18 point HI as core forming model and wildcards raveneye for 12 pts. Its also have moonrackers (16 pts), digger (14 pts), ment (15 pts), kappa (12 pts), so where is so-called expensiveness?
Yes they have a decent low end, but they only have AVA 1 FP bots (no cheap orders) and no ultra cheap chaff/irregs ala Muttawi'ah/Morlocks/Taighas. Also think about the tools a list needs. At a bare minimum, you need some kinda ranged solutions to TAGs, a way to deal with hard AROs, and a way to punish null deploys and/or contest the midfield. TB has excellent tools to do all of that - but they are specialized, and all moderately expensive. The Prime will clear any ARO in the game short of TAGs, but it's also 50ish points. The Wrecker is a TAG Azra'il, but it really doesn't wanna fight vis mods or overly strong BS numbers. Hippo is awesome for close assault work, but 40 points. They do have cheaper options (Stormbots, pure core linked Rover ML/HMG, Nimrods), but those all have their own caveats and limitations. They aren't some ultra cost effective monster ala BJC, nor do they have the access to cheap orders and chaff ala Kosmo.
While I do share the sentiment of TLB units too often looking like better versions of existing units, I do agree that as a whole the sectorial isn't broken strong. I would like for CB to be more consistent in their unit pricing, and to finally get back to updating older sectorials, though.
Sry - but when I read this, I had to smile Primion Oversilver IS cheap. Point. Yes 53 pts. but the best invested points for a S5 HI in the whole game. You put the best ARO (full pure core Bolt MSR) on 16 in the open, while you shoot on 15. TLBs command section is cheap as hell. The cheapest Lt+1 for NCO fuelling paired with cheap CoC. If you ignore support units, you can easily build an 18 order list with two Silverprime and two AP-HRL Wreckers. Digged in 15 pts orders protected by camo will secure youre midfiled. Everyone and their grandma has minelayer options. Yes - fourtunatly you can not take all the good stuff in 300 but you can make well rounded lists with good order efficency while take every time the best shooter in the whole game. TLB is a efficency sectorial with some luxury problems based on a overoptimized poster unit and some dirt cheap tools to keep it running. It looks like they do good with the power spiral - new stuff will be pushed far, while some other stuff will be just a few steps behind. If they do a small update with the release of a unit for "currently not promoted" sectorial it would help a bit.
Since my last post in this thread I've played into TLB once, watched two games played by them. I'll probably play against them tomorrow at 150 (escalation league game). Feeling of mild pointscreep still strong, especially on the cheaper pieces (esp Moonrakers) and the Prime. Still think they're not OP, just slightly underpointed and overoptimized. But the costing on that BS (-3) skill must be very, very low given what else the Prime is packing. If anything needs to be adjusted, it's the costing of that skill. (Or they could just give it back to the Kriza with no other changes, and we'll hope he drops 4 or 5 points. What a deal! :D)
Disagree with all but giving it the BS Attack (-3). Modern Kriza (since it became S5) has never been about agility. It's has been (and worked well as) a lumbering ammobeast spewing torrents of lead. It should stay 4-4 IMO. Get the BS Attack (-3) back and add nothing new, and watch that price drop 4-5 points given what it must be pointed at on the prime. We also have a 6-2 ARM5 Multirifle HFT heavy infantry already. We don't need another, we just need the Mk12 version to not be overpriced (ie drop the cost of the 360 visor to what it is actually worth, 1 point or so).
It's a symptom of O12's actual design space; heavily-optimised single-purpose units. I think on it's own merits O12 is a fun and internally consistent faction and a good choice for new players. Unfortunately, it's also proof that about half the older factions could have their historic weaknesses removed at this point and still not be a meta issue.
For what it is worth, I have a list of units that I think pay too much. It's not a long list, but Kriza is on it. As a unit, I think the Kriza is well designed within the boundaries of what Nomads are and how they seem to operate. A fairly worthy top performer in a faction that doesn't, generally, focus on this specific type of performance (let's ignore that Szalamandra exists for a second). But the price seem off. It doesn't align with what I'd expect for a unit like this. While it isn't by any stretch of the imagination a double digit amount off, a moderate single digit amount does make a difference. Not the 360 profile, of course. There's almost no non-REM 360 profiles that are well designed. I also don't think we'll ever see a unit with BS Attack -3 that is well designed. It's just not a type of mod, an anti-anti-mod, that will ever create a good game dynamic.
There's actually alot more than you think, much closer to a 50/50 split. Santiago, Warcor, Tsyklons, Marspiders, Void Operators, Nesaie Alke, Raptors, Bronze are all solid options that see play in their respective sectorials.
Another idea: Give the Kriza 6-2 move, +1bs, mim-6, super-jump and impetuous. There's literally lots that fits into Tunguskan lore, as it's design was supposedly a last resort crisis unit capable of pushing back PanO and Yu-Jing attacks. But as always no matter the ideas we share, CB will continue an internalised cycle of releases for different factions based around profit margins.
Santiago see play because they are the only KHD of the sectorial, a solid AD option and a 0SWC Spitfire as Lts, not because of their 360 visor.
Agreed about the fun and consistency of O-12, especially for beginners. Disagree that the faction's design space is single-purpose units now that TLB is out. There are many very solid all-rounders in there. Disagree: Those weaknesses really do need to remain to create a fixed weakpoint that an opponent can count on. O-12 having upgraded versions of many factions' basic troops proves that those factions can have their weaknesses removed, because the list of troops available to that faction as a whole matters. For example: - The sheer number of camo units means some factions shouldn't get great no-LoF area-denial attacks (Ariadna not getting good hacking or proximity weapons for example, - The presence of extremely powerful MSV options meaning normal smoke should be restricted (Pan O and Aleph) - ... etc. etc.
