Posted this on FB, but seem to be just getting off the cuff answers and figured I’d take advantage of the forums being a bunch of pedants, so: Isolated state disables your comms equipment (ie deployable repeaters, fastpanda, etc.) and takes effect at the 5.1 Effects step of the order sequence Place deployable skill specifically states it doesn’t place the repeater until the 5.2 Conclusion of an order (after the effects step). So if I ARO jammer the active model that is placing a deployable repeater and they become isolated what happens? 1. Their deployable repeaters are now disabled, so do they place a broken repeater? 2. They no longer can place the repeater as they don’t have any working repeaters? 3. When Place Deployable is declared the repeater goes to some out of game void until the Conclusion step when it comes back and is placed on the game board? I’m leaning towards 2, but that might just be because it gives some interesting counterplay to gml nonsense. Relevant rules bits:
I believe it is 3. The equipment exists is some quantum state neither being equipped or deployed until the conclusion. So even though the isolation takes effect at 5.1 the trooper no longer has the deployable even though it is not placed unit 5.2. If you were to make an Intuitive attack to deployable (because of camo) and you fail the wip roll then you do not place the deployable but you still expend the ammo if it has the disposable trait which suggests to me that is don not just regardless of the effects step but before it also.
Should be 3 the deployable repeater does not exist until the model places it and then it is another separate game element.
Why would it not exist? It is on the trooper’s equipment list, so clearly it exists. My problem with the quantum state answer 3 is nothing else in infinity works that way afaik, and nothing in the rules gives a real indication we should treat it like that when a simpler “he has the repeater until he doesn’t” exists. So far I have yet to see any actual rules support for 3, whereas both 1 and 2 make sense depending how you want to interpret disabled. And for me iKon’s comparison to intuitive doesn’t hold either as you lose the deployable on a failed intuitive specifically because intuitive attack says so as an effect, not some interpretation on the place deployable skill.
In general placement on 5.2 has been done specifically to avoid the conflict of dodging to a place and a deployable been placed on the same spot.
Everything in Infinity works this way. The only way to prevent the Effect of another unit's skill declaration is through a Face to Face roll, but since Place Deployable doesn't make rolls, nor target your hacker, this can not happen in this case. And, since when you checked whether the unit had Deployable Repeaters to place at requirements step, the unit wasn't Isolated, meaning later Isolation during the order can not mechanically remove the ability for the skill to work during the Effects and "end step". The only thing that can prevent the Deployable from being placed is there not being room to place it.
Everything else in infinity happens all at once in the effects step, not one after the other with a weird void in between. By you logic I would assume you like option 1 of yes the repeater goes down, but is disabled. You press a button at the effects step, since everything happens all at once you’re still alive. Even if that wasn’t the case nothing about hitting a button skill says anything about needing to be alive or non-null, so not the same situation really.
I see the issue. It is a common mistake. You need to follow the Order Expenditure Sequence properly. The Order Expenditure Sequence is the single most important rule to understand in Infinity and one that answers by far the most questions that newbies have. Everything works like this (slightly simplified): 1. Declare 2. Counter declare 3. Check conditions for everything declared 4. Roll for everything declared 5. Apply the effects of everything that won their rolls So, converted to deploying repeaters: 1. I will place a repeater here 2. R will isolate you as response 3. I am not Isolated, so I can place the repeater 4. R rolls to see if you get Isolated 5. I put the repeater down on the table simultaneously as I get isolated It is only if you are Isolated in step 3 that it can prevent you from putting down the repeater. However, Isolation can only happen in step 5. This works in exactly the same way as if you were exchanging shots with direct template weapons. Just because you get killed by your opponent in step 5 doesn't mean you don't get to shoot your gun in step 3 to 5. Yes, being dead would prevent you from harming your opponent with your attack, but that attack has already been locked in and rolled for. Since the opponent causing the isolation is not targeting the repeater, as it doesn't exist on the table as an entity in the step where you check ranges or when you make rolls, it can not be isolated or otherwise harmed by the opponent's attack.
Except your sequence is wrong. It’s an easy mistake for newbies to make as place deployable specifically works different than every other skill in infinity Since it does its thing at the conclusion step (5.2) after the effects step (5.1), like I put in the op and is the entire crux of the question. So at 5.1 the trooper is isolated and their Comms equipment is disabled, then at 5.2 they place a disabled repeater seems to be the track you’re on. Place deployable is worded so that the deployable stays off the table a bit longer and can’t be hit by templates the order it goes down, but that means it is still vulnerable to things that can effect it’s carrier as far as I can tell and no one has posted any actual rules disproving that so far.
His sequence is not wrong though. 5. Resolution: Check that the declared Skills and pieces of Equipment meet their respective Requirements, measure all distances, determine MODs, and both players make Rolls. If any Skill or piece of Equipment doesn’t meet its Requirements, the Trooper performs an Idle. 5 is before 5.1 and 5.2 the requirements are checked here, no dice have been rolled and it is not a face to face roll so even after the dice are rolled the skill cannot be prevented from occurring, there is no clause that would allow the skill to be checked again or to become idle after this step, so the placement cannot be prevented.
Oh I see now: you asked on Facebook and got the answer you didn't like so came here hoping for a different answer but still got the one you didn't like.
It is not nice to assume, it might just be the FB answer was a one liner answer without an in depth explanation of how the rules work and why.
So are you saying that disabled means “cannot be placed”? I don’t know that I agree, but at least that would be a rules based version on why I’m wrong. My problem is that he says “5. I put the repeater down on the table simultaneously as I get isolated” which is incorrect as elaborated in the op.
Oh no you found my evil secret, and I would have gotten away with it too if only I hadn’t posted it in the first sentence of my post here… As I said off the cuff answers, which seems to be what I’m getting here too as no one seems to be addressing the crux of the question.
Crux of the question being? That you got the same answer in both places, got it explained, got examples. But it's not the one you want/agree with? If that is the case, sorry for you. That is how the rules work for this situation. If i misunderstood and you are implying something different, you have my excuses and i'll wait for further explanation...
The elaboration of the OP is simply wrong, it assumes placing the repeater in step 5.2 is a second skill check when it is not, it is a placement check, by following the same logic a dead trooper cannot place a deployable in step 5.2 because, well been dead, prevents the short skill been declared in the first place. The one and only skill eligibility check of the order is done in step 5, if the model is eligible for the short skill at that time then the skill will happen no matter what. The only thing that the place deployable in 5.2 leaves open is not if the deployable will be placed, but where the deployable will be placed, and this is not to prevent the deployable been placed, but to make sure the deployable will be placed.
If your only counter-argument is to point out the minor discrepancy that I already highlighted, and ignore the actual rules being explained, then I think it is time to set your pride aside and admit that this is not a battle you can win. Not that it is a battle worth fighting anyway.
