Personally, I'd make activating an EVO program before T0 if you are going second to just be an inherent trait of EVO hackers, something you can do even without a CMD token. If it was reliant on spending CMD tokens, I think EVO hackers would still be too niche - because how often are you gonna T0 fairy dust vs stripping orders? EVO hackers very rarely worthwhile right now. I only ever see them taken in lists built around something like a pure Dakini or Unidron core, and even then that's somewhat rare. Maaaaaybe also in some skew shit like QK Yuan Yuan spam. Being able to actually utilize their defensive qualities when you need them the most (T1 when you have second turn) would actually make them an interesting option. Hell, maybe universal access to T0 assisted fire for TR bots might help cull the current dominance of TAGs (prob not but hey it also can't hurt).
My rationale is that PanO might not have the best-trained hacker personnel, but what they have is massive off-site processing and support infrastructure, and EVO allows the troops in the trenches to tap into that support. EVO already is a toolbox device, the issue is that most players see the application of its programs as extremely niche. I like it, because I actually like those niches, like using Combat Jump, or assault remotes. Some of its programs could use update - Enchanced Reaction could give Neurocinetics instead of B2 ARO, for example. U-Turn could see a comeback. There could be an expert support program giving a bonus to interacting with objectives. Or a Supportware program setting up a local cloud server, allowing allied hackers to share hacking programs if needed. A Fairy Dust derivative sealing own Repeater against enemy intrusion, maybe even protecting it with Black ICE software. A Nullfier, placing a template in similar way as White Noise, filling it with so much electronic hash, that hacking from within is impossible (I'm not welded to any of these ideas, I'm just wondering about possibilities). Regardless, everyone should be able to get more value out of EVO, with PanO standing to gain the most, having the best and widest toolbox here - again, massive infrastructure. Let the fluff work in their favour sometimes.
CB spent years stripping out hacking complexity, as cool as this sounds as a seasoned n2/n3 player, I can't see them reversing the trend and adding more crunch
Nomads, amongst others, have access to the counter intelligence rule. What do you think? That said I wouldn't say no to making it a passive trait for EVO hackers.
It's already borderline mandatory to spend 1 command token to remove orders to make up for the inherent drawback of going second; at this point, it seems almost assumed given how strong alpha strikes and how weak AROs generally are. Agreed, at least if they remain about as niche as they presently are - mechanics which favor going second are probably a positive addition right now, and given the price investment of current EVO hackers, giving them the same order economy as Minelayer would be a good change. I also don't really know what this fixes - PanO doesn't really have something like a Daktini or Unidron core that really benefits from supportware - while a Bulleteer with marksmanship can be nice, it's more of an active turn piece. You can do Enhanced Reactions, but spitfire range bands in ARO are something you need to be very careful about. Yes, please. In general, I think I agree? The biggest issue I'm seeing is that generic improvements to EVOs seem most likely to favor Daktini and Unidron link teams, and Aleph/CA don't need any help right now. It's hard to say more without a concrete idea of how they would change, though I think would need to be things that don't favor the current dominant strategies. A few ideas: Changing Fairy Dust to stack with Tinbots A program that targets the table and places some number of tokens (2-3?) which black out repeaters in their own ZOC, either just deployable repeaters/Panda/Pitchers or even those that are carried by units. That nomad favortism is totally unspring, and that the expected state of Infinity design is that they are given the best or second-best tools (or selection of tools) to interact with something. That said, I don't think "counter intel exists" is changing much. You take it on the chin and move on; if you were depending on something like a Daktini Sniper Core for ARO defense, it might be worthwhile to spend the CR to get your defenses active, but I'm not sure a Bulleteer spitfire is a good enough ARO piece unless the table is conducive to preventing it from being outranged. Anyway the simplest fix would be that if Mulebots could link as a Fusiler/Crossier then the opportunity cost of taking them is a lot less notable, so they'd be a better pick. You don't need complexity to add more power to the mechanic. Just changing the numbers would boost it, but maybe not in a way that's particularly desirable.
The point being is you'd use it to turn on firewall to help with the hacking getting lobbed at you from across the table to help the issue with units like the Ser Chonks and the Tik which can't get tinbot firewalls and are prime targets for getting harassed on turn 1 by hackers. It would be useful spending a command token to protect units like that when you know you're playing into counter intel, firewall provides a significant statistical shift versus Oblivion and Spotlight.
Thought: Maybe equip EVO Remotes with Nullifiers? Easy way to prevent the Hackable LT problem and present the "massive offsite resources" problem that Repeaters were literally designed to solve in lore. Hard to turn into an offensive problem since those REMs can't usually be included in a link of any kind and only deploy in the DZ.
That's probably not a good idea, it's just making things uninteractive instead of actually doing something about the problems which include: Pitchers never should have had the range they do, nor should they benefit from fireteam bonuses Hacking defensively in the reactive turn is bad and needs a rework.
It's uninteractive, but it is counterplay to a major problem that's been sucking the life out of lists since N4 began, and CB clearly aren't willing to apply much (if any) effort to maintaining older units unless it can be tied to a product launch or is definitively game-breaking. It's either an "ITS Seasonal Rule"-tier update, or some auto-take overtuned Mercenary/Aristeia! character with none of the flaws inherent to the design of its parent faction that is most likely to actually show up to solve the problems, and I for one hope for increased list diversity by making Pitcher+GML/Oblivion a less reliable tactic instead of more pushed tripe.
I don't think nerfing pitchers is gonna do anything substantial imo. Yes it would hit the hacking abilities of some factions. vCA, HB and MAF come to my mind as the factions that would be hit the worst by this change - which sure, vCA def deserves to be taken down a peg, and HB and MAF def aren't weak but it's not really comprehensive and imo HB is often overrated anyway. A lot of (very strong) factions have other (and even better) options using things like camo infil dep reps, fastpandas, and so on. The approach is to deal with the repeater itself. Make it a valid ARO target when used for a hacking attack. Make it susceptible to programs like trinity and oblivion. I'd even wanna argue that with these changes, most current hacking projection set ups wouldn't need much of an nerf (prob with the exception of the Heckler and B&K). I also think to an extent that GML needs to exist and even needs to be decently strong - otherwise you run into scenarios where people can just opt out of having to care about hacking, which doesn't seem desirable either. Showing up to a game with a faction that has a lot of it's design space invested into it's hacking net like CJC, only to find that stuff doesn't matter because your opponent is playing Arianda isn't exactly a fun situation. Personally, I'd try and adjust the numbers on it so it's less swingy. Maybe spotlight becomes B2, but the GML itself turns into a HRL, something a little less potent than an ML.
Wait, everyone told me I was wrong ehen I pointed out now uninteractive N4 hacking was at the start of the edition. Say it ain't so!
We have to point out the disparity in options, power, and attention given to PanO compared to other factions to even have a meaningful conversation about this topic. You know what that means? The design team made a mistake. They failed. They fucked up. Come on, you can say it. It's just in a small way, though, relatively. No game designer is flawless, let's be real. But the more you try to pretend that that criticism shouldn't be stated, the more it needs to be brought attention to.
All of these are inferior to pitchers and require more orders to move them into the same threat range. Additionally, you can screen these units from approaching with mines and/or units. Why do you think Yu Jing has just gone up a hacking tier despite already having the Guilang? It's because they got a fireteaming Pitcher. Linked Pitchers on the other hand can reliably from within or just outside their own DZ and project repeater coverage into the enemy DZ. A base BS11 unit punts them 24" on 69.8% success rates when put in a core. The X-Visor varieties do it on 87.8%. Those numbers are simply too damn high when they're allowing a hacker to project 32" without even factoring in the fireteam's movement. Speaking as someone who now gets to, and does, abuse these pitchers. I'd make some pretty hard changes to pitchers beginning with capping them at an 8" range. I'd basically turn Pitchers into Dep Reps that deploy in ZoC, like the Fast Pandas do now. Then I'd rework the perimeter weapon family back to something closer to their N3 versions. The user places a perimeter weapon at their feet. The weapon then operates independently after that. It doesn't spend orders, doesn't ARO but triggers them, and may move 10" once per turn with C+ without spending an order. The offensive varieties trigger with their usual explosive nature while the pandas act as a repeater. Essentially perimeter weapons would be deployed and then gradually rove out during the game on their own.
White Banner got significantly better not because they got hacking projection that they couldn't previously access, but because the Dokk slots in elegantly behind a tinbot -6 fireteam, and is very optimized overall. That it has a pitcher as well is just a cherry on top, people would still be running very powerful (if less versatile) WB hacking lists if the Dokk didn't have a pitcher. vYJ is just happy to get a very cost effective hacker, something that they previously lacked. Linked pitchers are honestly the hacking projection method I see the least. Nomad players are all in on the Heckler, and why not? Short of doing something stupid like over infiltrating a minelayer, it's practically impossible to stop it from throwing a FastPanda into your DZ. Camo infil dep reps are easier to stop, but still pretty difficult. Bakunin players do run pitchers, but are relying on the new Initiates as well, both for offensive and defensive hacking plays. Camo dep reps/FP are simply more reliable - linked pitchers with the numbers you suggested fail 30% of the time, which is not an insignificant number. A camo dep rep/FP run cannot fail to deliver unless you do something stupid like walking it into a mine. It is also worth mentioning that pitcher-hackers themselves can get zoned out by HD AROs, and that fireteams are obvious and easy to counter deploy. WB can't reserve drop a Dokk in the same way vHaqq can reserve drop a Hunzakut. It's way less flexible.
Pitchers shouldn't exist. Hacking through repeaters already has an absurdly skewed risk-return ratio, and having the option to place a repeater 16 or more inches away, even with a die roll, removes what opportunities for defense might otherwise exist by zoning, and negates the cost of having to reach the enemy that every other form of offense has. While also ignoring terrain. And obviously they're so cheap that it's not like going into the app and control+F, delete "pitcher" would make the profiles that have then bad. Darktoks are still stupidly durable, Jazz and Billie require actual support but are still a cheap source of KHD and Hacking Plus and efficent mines, and Bit and Kiss go in the trash where they belong. Speaking realistically, capping their range at 8" and making them a Thrown Weapon (since most hacking models dump PH) would make them much more balanced. Which clearly illustrates why they should be removed, if the list would be fine without a tool which is bad for the game overall. When hacking lists suffer no consequences for failure, which is most of the time, and benefit from a considerable economy of orders in mostly ignoring rangebands and table positions In any case they only need to fire on their good range to hit 70% of the time. They only have a 9% chance to fail with the 3-man link team bonus, and far higher odds on the 5-man. There's more than one problematic network projection tool, obviously. The simplest fix would be a surcharge on anything with Infiltration or Camouflage that also has a repeater or deployment repeater.
There is no real consequence for failing with Pitchers, 30% failure rate for shooting in your BAD range band from the safety of your DZ is not high risk or problematic at all, especially when the payoff is something like oops I shot Hector/Joan/your biggest HMG with a guided missile. Did I miss? Oh no. Not the consequence of maybe missing the first attempt I guess I might spend more orders to try again, or maybe I will just write off the single order I spent and do something else with the rest of the turn and my other entire army's worth of orders, truly I am crippled and playing from behind now. Then like you said, walking an infiltrating dep rep up through a potential mine is a stupid play, stupid enough that you would not do it to which I agree. So camo screens/mines are functionally stopping Guilangs from projecting 100% of the time. Take it from a long term Yu Jing player that has been hacking this whole time, White Banner is absolutely upgrading in tiers because of the pitcher. The Dokk could be a naked Pitcher, the hacking device on the profile I literally don't give a shit about I was already abusing the Ye Mao for my hacking purposes anyway (thanks to being one of the few hackers in the game who can force uncontested hacking rolls). Prior to the rest of the Koreans joining the party White Banner had a strong defensive hacking screen thanks to the minelaying Guilang, who could also double up to pressure targets moving into the midfield. The fireteaming Pitcher has elevated them to a sectorial that projects a highly significant alpha strike threat through their hacking, able to reliably bypass AROs and skirmisher screens to reach into DZs from their own DZs. That represents a huge shift in capability and threat. Are you joking? Having an Agema pop up and take a shot at the Dokk with a ML while I'm trying to use the Pitcher is one of the better things that could happen, I'm just going to declare Dodge instead, so now: 52.5% odds it does literally nothing to me 47.5% odds the Dokk takes 1 wound, oh no, it's literally standing in spitting distance of an engineer. 33.5% odds the Dokk dies outright. Even in that worst case scenario 3 I'm absolutely good with this. A) My opponent has statistically probably traded his 31 point Agema ARO piece for my Dokk which costs less than this. B) The Agema did not put my more costly TacAw HI attack piece armed with a 32" gun at risk at all during this, you know the model that's probably slated to do alot of heavy lifting during the game. C) Said HD Missile Launcher is no longer a risk of a catastrophic failure moment when it catches a whole bunch of the fireteam it was overwatching as they tried to push out of the DZ and makes them explode because of the fucky quantum nature of templates vs units when they move. And that's worst case scenario. 66.5% of the time I probably get to kill an Agema for free. I am absolutely ok with this sequence of events.
Are we speaking about specifically the case of vYJ/WB or pitchers generally? Yes the Dokk is resilient to HD AROs. B&K (who might as well be an FT linked pitcher), Barids, Jazz, Dartoks and so on are not. Failing your pitchers and having to spend more orders on projection is pretty annoying, especially given the swingy B1 vs B1 nature of GML and Spotlight. Unless you give up on your hacking attack and go for something else or have another pitcher in the link, you are spending a minimum of two more orders assuming you have a baggage bot in range. Also I think looking at HD AROs in terms of trading lacks nuance, especially in a situation where you have second go on turn 1. I'm happy with my Nadhir if it catches B&K and knocks them down, even if it immediately eats shit against an Avatar. I've wasted an opponent's order and got a kill on a unit that it's p critical to vCA's hacking ability. I'm also happy with my Nadhir if it forces 2-4 orders of careful movement out of my opponent, denies impetuous moves, even if it dies in the first actual F2F it take. Most HD AROs are inherently swingy. You take them generally because they force conservative movement and waste orders, not because they have peak F2Fs. Despite being swingy, they are taken against pitchers because they are one of the few ways you can stop a pitcher attack dead, and have way more autonomy for you as the reactive player opposed to trying to box in a camo dep rep/FP with mines. As for mines countering Heckers/Hunzakuts/Crocmen FO - they can just, you know, move around the mine - especially in the case of the Heckler with it's absurd threat range. For mines to effectively shut one of these units out, you need a map that is absurdly dense and linear.
While I can see the minor link hacking has with PanOceania, you are essentially hijacking the thread again for debating hacking in general, yes I can see the connection but its a slim one. The same goes with the Nomads hate, while everybody loves to hate Nomads getting anything, not very productive mind you, regardless of if it is used or is actually considered a top tier unit or not, does it really matter in a PanO thread? This is a thread specifically created and cultivated for PanOceania (obviously and its sectorials) what it does, what it does not do, what problems it faces, what problems it does not face, how to overcome the problems, what problems may need more than just a tactical overcoming and how new things can happen without stepping out of PanOceanias design restrictions, and how to creatively use these restrictions. Please try to add to the discussion it is good so far and it is not a minor thread.
There is difference in criticism and what you do, if you understand it, you may be able to criticize.
No you don't, minelayers on a regular ass table will make it order inefficient to the point of just go use the pitcher because it's better and faster. You were literally talking about the Dokk being unable to be reserve piece and somehow getting stymied by a HD ARO piece, when in reality it literally doesn't care. Nothing you are saying is relevant. B&K are nothing like a fireteam pitcher, I don't know what crack you're smoking they're way worse odds to pitch. Jazz doesn't need to pitch, Nomads have a better option and it has an X-Visor. A Barid with a Pitcher is 13 to 17 points ARO and isn't a keystone hacker literally who gives a shit if it gets shot at instead of a HD pinning your fireteam, odds are you just fire the pitcher and ignore the incoming shot with them. Similar story for the Dartok, oh no, it got shot at. Who cares I can replace it with eleventy billion other morats to fireteam in meanwhile I have a very decent chance of setting up to completely screwing my opponent over with this one order. Even if you only take 1 shot at it and don't try a second time for whatever reason, 70% odds or better off one order is a strong opening plan. More often than not it sets to pace for a game and there's nothing that can actually prevent it from being able to take its shot from, once again, the safety of its DZ.
