It's honestly weird that this, along with medkits/gizmokits (+1 B) are yet another Nomads/CA thing rather than being available at all in PanO. Thematically, it just seems wrong. Honestly, at this point it needs to be BS Attack (AP) instead of an actual weapon that costs points. PanO sectorials are strapped for points as it, and the 2023 school of design is pretty clear that you design a unit by slapping random MODs onto it instead of actual skills or equipment that cost points. Just look at the Nomad Sigmatronic; it's easy to get a TAG to be a hacker and somehow cost less that 60 points if you give it three different bonuses for free! Or the Nomads KarenKreigers - Martial Arts is just so 2020, all the cool kids now have CC Attack (+3) and CC Attack (-3). But jokes aside, panO sectorials are already stressed for points, especially after the REMs got nerfed. In Military Orders, for example, being able to take a MULTI rifle on the Montessa Paramedic would be nice, but having go pay 2 extra points for the on a Machinist/Curator would hurt. Ultimately, given the price issues that already exist, if the concept is to keep PanO limited in tools while depending on bullying through everything with superior fundamentals and somewhat better profiles, I'm not sure you are really going to get there with "fairly" priced upgrades, especially when many of the privileged factions already get no-cost UPGRADE Programs and skill mods. In terms of things that are worth the cost - minelayer. Exporting the Minelayer/Sensor line infantry profile from SAA would go a long way to make the DZ less vulnerable to cheap warband rushes and mitigate the lack of a midfield defensively. Yes, the Raveneye exists, but birdman is unlinkable and MO (at minium) doesn't really have 12 points floating around for a Line Troop who isn't contributing to the defensive core.
I can only comment as an opponent of PanO. I like some of the suggestions that seem very “PanO” to me. More variety shooting weapon options. More ammo options or troops with +1 Dmg, or Shock, etc. More skills like Sensor, Discover +X, etc I don’t think these things would put PanO over the top. As long as they are cost appropriate. For my own idea: they seem to not want PanO a lot of camo but I think a good compromise is Camo (1 use) and Hidden Deployment with no camo. I think the fact they are limited helps to make them not too powerful. I think PanO should have more remotes of some kind. I can see them not wanting to rely on fleshies. Nomads have a lot of attack remotes because they “need” them. PanO should have them because they Want them. Maybe their equivalent to Betas, Karakuri, Dakini. or just big attack bots with big guns. Something like a REM that does nothing but shoot a big gun like an Autocannon or HRMC.
Exactly, I always assumed that when there was talk of using multi rifles instead of combis in the line infantry, it was done at the same cost as the unit with combi. Otherwise we are not talking about giving Pano an edge, but about changing the loadout of units that would pay too dearly for that change. It's a sidegrade, and a not very good one, rather than an upgrade. On more expensive units, the points impact of a loadout revision can be accepted as long as the new loadout is a net improvement over the previous loadout. To give an extreme example of this case, we already talked about the ridiculousness of the Crusade Core when the most we can aim for in terms of damage is the HMG firing with BS17, investing more than 50% of our list points in the process. But what if the crusade core had an HK with an HRMC? We would be talking about a B6 weapon shooting BS17, DAM 15 and AP/Shock. Maybe it's too much but what other faction apart from "the best shooting faction in the game" could have something like that? It's still ridiculous but now there is a reason to play with that core. Additionally, and following the theme of the Crusade Core, so far "Crusade" is nothing more than a fancy name for a core that ultimately has no benefit compared to any of the other existing cores in the game. What if there were additional themed bonuses for fireteams with fancy names? This could be something unique to Pano, having fireteams with fancy names in each sectorial and each of these fireteams having additional composition bonuses that make the difference in shooting that Pano should have.
You can have a BS14 Pure ‘Heavy Infantry’ core in SWF that has a significant higher damage output than the current crusader core… but only because it divides the damage over different weapons carried by different people. Orc HMG -> BS 17 B5 DAM 15 Orc BSG Firewall -> BS 17 B3 DAM 14 AP Vargar HRL FO -> BS 16 B3 DAM 14 Continuous Terminal Vargar WildParrot, Sensor, Triangulated Fire -> BS 10 DAM 13 B4 Triangulated Fire + B2 HFT Vargar K1 Minelayer -> BS 16 B4 DAM 13 ARM = 0 Exactly 150 pts. But having an assault core such as this is hard to use as it is extremely vulnerable to template attacks. It is still ridiculous. What you’re asking instead is a single ‘Anti-Everything’ weapon (HRMC). Carried by a unit that has also some resilient to FtF critical failure due to 2 W and ARM4 with Inmune Shock, who is also viable in CC, and is surrounded by other similar resilient units toted with either templates (BSG) or able to patch up the “Anti-Everything” weapon with doctor skill… … and nothing preventing you to have two of such “Anti-Everything” weapons in the same Core to not only be more efficient in your order expenditure (one shoots while other move into next shooting position) but also having a failsafe in case of extreme FtF critical failure against an “anti-everything” weapon. I am not a fan of such design.
The problem is part of PanO's schtick is "technological superiority" and yet there's a relentless push to portray them as technologically incompetent in the game. Also, there are certain problems with the way PanO plays that can *only* be solved by giving them more varied options. As the OP of this very long thread pointed out, PanO is the most restricted faction in terms of what it has access to. Frankly, Nomad (and CA, to a certain extent) fans are going to have to eat shit on this one if the game is to improve.
Some suggestions for SWF: Curator – linkability in winterfor beta 0-1 Agnes - REM Driver - remove CC+5, lower price by 2 Richard - release a winter version with ski on his back as a LE Chaksa – kick them out Oktavia – give her linkability in fusilier fireteam, give her (fusilier) if you dare. If she should stay solo at all cost, add mime -3 and lower the price by 3 at least. Remove 6th sense. Trauma – medikit +1 B + 1pts (tech over skill) Uma -FTO lower the price by 3, give her sensor / camo make it one use but lower the price by 3 Infirmareres – doctor + or medikit +1 B, replace mono with something cheaper or plain ccw, lower the price, keyword Hospitaller, keyword Fusilier Nisses lower the price by removing lsg, add tinbot -3 for the hacker, upgrade spotlight +1 B add a FO with sensor, add a MMR (and release it soon, make it female). Remove lt. SWC. Boyg – replace shock ccw with plain ccw, add 1 cc lower the price by 2 KoJ – replace combi with multi – do it now! It is so unhonrable for her. Orc – clean up loadouts, kick out varuna, give every orc loadout winter theme, then kick out the normal versions, replace all combis with multis. Change Hacker: HD to KHD Jotum- add total immunity ... just joking ;-) Bulleteer – lower the price by … ah …erm ... REMs – replace armbot with MK12 +1 B, give BSG a flashpulse Locust – add HD,replace all shock ccw with plain, remove non specialsit breaker versions, add FO and FP to BSG. Release the missing options in a overpriced box of 3. Do the Parrot in Siocast. Valyire: Add a (fluffwise all female) MI combat jump unit with CC skills, WIP 13 and doctor. BS 12, Dogged, Combi and BSG loadout.
Entirely non-ironically, yes, they should. MULTI should be ubiquitous in PanO at No or nearly no cost, just as HI should be cheaper in YJ than anywhere else.
Why? Also, out of curiosity, once you're starting to hand out freebies / discounts, how would you intend to balance it out?
Probably some stat tweaking is the most direct approach, there are ways to mitigate equipment costs, personally I am not a fan of making multi weapons the standard, more prevalent yes, but I do love the idea here making combis+ammo a thing.
They already hand out freebies and discounts. It's good to have a rough base formula in place, but deviating from it to a certain extent specifically to balance single units or loadouts should be a given, because any units performance in the game is way too complex to be represented accurately by that formula.
And yet there are other fireteams that have design guidelines similar to this in other factions That is exactly why I put "extreme example". As it is now, that fireteam is not worth the investment in any of its possible combinations. The trick is that the fireteam is a beast in shooting, that is the reason for its existence, but it doesn't take much to counteract the supposed superiority it has. It's as simple as putting a unit with visual mods in front of it, and that's it. Or neutralize it with smoke, the same smoke that all factions have except Pano. On the other hand, a well-placed hacker can ruin the party for the core, which is still extremely vulnerable to hackers. Impersonation units can also be used, Pano in general and MO in particular has few anti shenanigans tools. After all, we are talking about a Pano core, and one of the most expensive that Pano has (if not the most expensive, period). It should force the opponent to have to think of alternative ways to deal with it and not go straight to shooting. All other factions have plenty of tools to deal with a Crusade core with HRMC. As things stand now, the other factions have the option of using any of the tools described above or resorting to shooting and have a serious chance of emerging victorious. The only thing the HRMC does is mitigate the advantage that the other factions have in only one of the available options, shooting. And remember that to use a core with these characteristics, the player should be investing around 200 points in only 5 units. He has 100 left available in a faction that is not known for having cheap optimized units. Even with the HRMC the Crusade core would still be a liability.
Side grades are good just for the variety. It be more interesting. It can give a feeling of flexibility. There's some that get freebies and taxes depending on background. Like YJ has a CC tax. They pay all around for a stat they never use. It's the least used stat in the game. While PanO already could say to have a freebie by having a better BS for less points. Just look at Fusilier vs. Zhanshi.
CB will *not* break their points formula to rebalance PanO - they're not a faction with that privilege. You should know that by now. They hiked the prince on the Bulletteer.
They don't do it enough, and it's clear that sometimes they game it (NWI and Shock Immunity, Frenzy, etc) A lot of the ALEPH stuff is far too cheap, as well.
What factions would you say get that privilege? And do you think that sectorials within a faction get that privilege but not the faction as a whole? Do you think that privilege is more related to release date of the profile? Newer stuff vs older stuff?
That's not actually true. They've added unexplained discounts twice to MO. Once for the Hospis and once for the Magisters when they renamed to Teutons.
I remember the changes were during the N3-N4 change and many HIs across different factions got improved or discounted. If the Hospitallers change is before that, I have no idea. I began Infinity with 3rd offense MO rework and I don't know about the time when Hospitallers could link with Magisters.
