It's not that complicated game. Either you have cost efficient solutions, or you don't. It opponent crits on the wrong spot, you can definitely lose a game on that. In N3 you didn't see alot of TAGs or Hi because crits autopenerated any armour. Order spam and fataly2 were kings that's the reason why all good lists spammed orders and fatality2. Did the great masses in the forums complain that armour is useless as vigorously as they do now in this thread about PanO? Probably not. Smoke stomping was also balanced, somehow. My point is that this whining has a very selective memory. It's not the first time in the history of gaming communities that this happens. One could say that it's a feature of our dear hobby.
Oh don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying N4 sucks and N3 was better. I’m not saying PanO is hopeless either. I’m just saying it ain’t fun, and that it’s quite risky, to rely exclusively only a Tag. Yes they are better than in N3, undoublty, but that doesn’t make it ultra viable either. And I’ll even say that in some missions, mainly the ones with a Panic room in the middle of the table, having a Tag can be even more of a burden than bot having it
N4 and particularly crits mechanics change generally improved life for high ARM units. Part of the issue with PanO stems from the general problem with direction of the game. The overabundance of units both creates more and more ways for other factions to play around simple firepower advantage, and erodes that advantage at the same time. Throw in the lack of creativity CB shows when adding things to PanO, throw in the lack of any indication they even consider what we discuss a problem, and it makes for a very disheartening game experience. I don't have any particular insights to add to the thread, it was already well covered above by people with more time on their clocks. I'm just sad, I already left PanO some time ago, I'm in the process of selling off Aleph, and I seriously wonder if I'll have the heart to play this year, or should I just sell CA off as well and be done with it :/ Sorry, I don't want to be a constant eeyore, but for some time now whenever I try to interact with the game frustration with current state of things quickly drowns out any excitation I might have for it. I'll try to shut up now.
I think you always have to rely on something. It's either a fishdude with ton of orders behind it or a TAG with ton of orders behind it. Somehow the first one isn't a problem but the second one is. The fix is very easy. Just give PanO HI total immunity like Bronzes have. Suddenly those f2f rolls are all not at all problematic. BS12 fullcore volkolak ML is printing money in every ARO.
Your whining also has a selective memory. You are welcome to review the Uprising threads, N4 launch Hacking threads or anything relating to the Kamau Sniper from N3 should you require additional whining content.
In retrospect I think that Kamau Sniper was oppresive, but like not super oppressive. It could be ARO baited to death, dealt with fatality2 or just overpowered by 30 scots with 3 HMGs. Solid for providing negative play experince for new players, but not something that could be relied to win a tournament. Perhaps we need to bring back ARO baits?
But any Queen piece is not fun. Who said it was fun for everyone except PanO? And that’s a reason for example why I enjoy so much playing with SEF: - Sheskiin can rampage and cause huge damage. But does a non Sheskiin list becomes subpar? Definitely not - Speculo? Same I ran perfectly viable lists without them. - Noctifer? Same SEF is for me a well designed Sectorial, that: - has multiple tools and doesn’t basically tell you “take Sheskiin or stfu” (to make a comparison with my previous statement) - still isnt: “I do everything that PanO does but better, and on top of that I have multiple tools that PanO doesn’t have” like Bakunin, MAF or Kosmoflot (which make me cringe to some high extent as you might have guessed)
Let's be honest here. SEF can't really penetrate "perfect defences" except with Speculos and Sphinxes. N4 Sheskiin is garbage compared to her N3 incarnation, which is the primary reason why N4 SEF is garbage compared to N3 SEF. Single busted skill on a single profile is all that it takes in infinity. I'm also sure that if CB brought back fatality2 and gave it her, she would be in many winning tournament lists. CA fanboys would also say that it's fair and balanced because she isn't TI. But I'm curious, why SEF is a fine and balanced sectoral but (apparently all?) PanO sectorals aren't?
I disagree, SEF has many tools besides those two to choose from, and Sheskiin was never such a keystone to SEF's power level.
Well please tell me what those tools are? Like if they have those tools, surely they would dominate in the comp scene?
Huh? Isn’t that what we are speaking about since the start? You say: “PanO does need no tool because they are all fine with their best Tags and infinity is all about 1 unit that does everything.” To which I reply I don’t agree because a queen only list isn’t viable, and take SEF as an example of a sectorial that relies on multiple tools and not only Sheskiin or any other “queen” SEF piece, yet are perfectly competitive. You seem a bit lost in your arguments here
A well placed Noctifer will ruin opponent day, specially PanO that can’t cover their way forward with smokes. Taighas trade insanely well and will wreck units 5 to 10 times their value, and it’s not that hard with their Berserk, insane dodge and insane movement to close the gap in turn 1 Speculos can kill a tag or a lieutenant turn 1 They manage the midfield like few are able to do But are they as competitive as Kosmo, Bakunin, Vanilla CA or Nomads that are limit broken. No they aren’t, specially on missions with full exclusion zones, and even then, I used 3 KHD Cadmuses and a Evo hacker, I can tell you it worked perfectly fine and the opponent couldn’t do shit as they landed triggering all the mines with the decoys, killed back line hackers and shotgunned fireteams. And that’s why in my opinion SEF is a well done sectorial, that isn’t OP like Kosmo and the others, and isn’t either shoehorned to “take only that piece or stfu”
I was making comparisons between PanO and SEF. Neither has access to a good smoke thrower. Both have apex gunfighters, camos and hidden deployment. One is problematic and the other is well designed faction. PanO would become a well designed faction if it got Taighas and Speculos?
Interesting take. Very interesting take. - Smoke throwers: fully agreed - Apex gunfighters: fully agreed - Camos / midfield: I tend to disagree a bit. Except for MO maybe that has the insanely optimized and cost efficient Minelayers Trinitarians, SEF midfield is clearly superior. They have tons of options to choose that are all very viable and that will mindscrew your opponent with all the mines and decoys. Is it a Caliban? A seed soldier? A mine? A decoy? A shrouded? Hidden dep: Yes the Swiss Guard is absolutely exceptional but it’s also extremely pricey and I find the Noctifer to be better optimized. Also, except for Trinitarian that I just highlighted and Cutter the Hidden deps of SEF are imho overall better. You can’t compare a Hexa or Croc man against Noctifer or Malignos. Let’s not forget they have better Hackers (not super great though), better midfield, and yes Taighas are excellent warbands / traders that PanO doesn’t have. So yes, I believe they are better designed because they have higher versatility. But again, it’s my personal appreciation of these sectorials. I’m a main PanO, and I’m not having as much fun with them as I have with SEF or O12. It’s maybe just a faction that isn’t for me. Edit: Swiss guard, not Aquila
The problem isn't mimetisn nor the lethality of AROs. The problem is the complete lack of adequate tools to deal with common and recurrent situations like the one I described. And situations where the Pano doctrine of "apply more firepower" is equivalent to pressing the self destruct button of your list. MO is not fine. it's not the shitfest it once was, but it's still far from being fine. And a Tikbalang will still be outshot by a Moiras core, the only upside is that it can tank hits more effectively than HI and that it's cheaper than a Crusade core, but that's it. No it's not. Precisely one of the interesting points of infinity is that the little one can destroy the big bully only by having the right weapon. There are Rambos in the game but they can't walk around the table with impunity as you suggest in your post. in fact, two 25 point units with the right weapon can make much more of a difference than a 50 points HI. Two units cover a larger area of the table, provide two orders and need fewer orders to reach the good attack vectors (because there are two of them, deployed in different places on the table). A Rambo consumes a number of orders that many factions cannot afford to spend if they plan to play competitively. If it's for the lulz, then yes, play your Rambo surrounded by cheerleaders and let the good times roll. Exactly the point I made, which completely contradicts your argument about Rambos. Pano may be in a better place but that doesn't mean that place is necessarily good. I think it's less bad than the place it was in before, but in no way do I consider it good.
PanO's problem isn't power level, it's lack of good and fun to use alternatives to "apply more firepower". Acontecimento is a good example of how PanO could play; it always lacked most of the signature PanO bells and whistles, like TO Camo or high level MSV, but access to Aleph troops gives it a very nice midfield game, as well as best Repeater and hacking capabilities of all PanO sectorials.
Tikbalang vs fullcore Moiras Multisniper 34% - 38% - 27% with 1,36% chance of going unconscious. Those are excellent chances for Tikbalang taking out 1.5swc and gutting enemy order pool. Tikbalang should worry about fullcore Kaitok feuerback, which is a true hard ARO: 23% - 31% - 45%, with 7% of going unc I feel that players who are complaining about PanO shooting problems away should perhaps try other factions. It’s like vAriadna complaining about playing bearpodes all the time. Yes, meta favours bearpodes at the moment. There is very little reason not to play them all the time.
I play other factions. In fact I also have O-12 and HB, which is slowly becoming my main faction. The Govad-Muyib pure core is a joy to play even if it's a little bit overpriced, shooting at 15s even against targets with mimetism and with plenty of loadout options.
I think that just pure luck. This example does not underline that Pan Os shooting is not superior. Even full bust with five dice on 9 vs two on 16 is something that would make me think twice. Besides the new and shiny sectorials (Bakunin & Morats) that recieved an armypack and a big overhaul latley, Pan O is still able to field pure fireteams in a midprice range. Namely Bolts and Kamau. Both had the most powerful ARO snipers. And NCA can now add TA and save a point or two also (Blade). Nisse are also powerful but have to pay a much steeper price with the lowest Nisse clocking in at 28 pts vs Kamau´s 20. It has some other qualitys, but it lacks cheap fillers like the new Blade (does not count as Nisse in SWF). SWFs Firepower is Burst because you can bring two haris and one core. And all can have good shooters 13 and visor and mime-3 if you like. You are not pure then, but you have three units with extra burst on the table (that your solos will suffer from that is on another page). In my opinion SWF suffers mostly from: No airborn deployment. Their infiltration is crappy their camo game are mines and the extra haris will not make up for that. They need another attack angle. I mean the word "valkyre" exist, who diffecult would it be to think of a combat jump unit by that name and the Svarlaheima theme? MO ist theoreticaly able to field a 66 pts BS 15 MSV2 Spitfire. I would call that bad. You need a few orders to get into postiton but then five time 15 vs two time 15 in your Moira example. And yes Bakunin got some love with the new actionpack. Sadly CB has the tendacie to offer some very good stuff to fresh action packs that are followed by a big upgrade. My last game vs Bakunin went well and I had only one MSV 1 on a Guilang Hacker ... ;-) I still think Pan O is on the shooty side, but I also think that can not be all. We need some rethinking here. Other sectiorials grow in shooting options while also offer other qualitys, especialy the new ones like Morats and Bakunin, which are good, but not unbeatable.
Yes and no. Sure Kosmo has the auto pick bearpode, but it has Plan Bs and Plan Cs. - Volkolak is a super efficient ARO and active piece - Uxia is a super skirmisher, SAS are very solid - midfield is very strong - warbands are solid - Mirage is solid - Smoke spam Even if both bears are struck down before taking down a single unit (extremely unlikely), you still have a very good army behind to achieve objectives and that is able to defend itself. Lose your Tag (arguably easier than losing your bear), it’s game over. Again, it comes down to versatility. And again, to make it clear, I’m a PanO main, and I win with them. It’s not like my W/L is abysmal. They are good. But not fun to me. And you are somewhat correct when saying “take a Tag or play another faction”, I’d rather take another faction :)
