TAGs and Courage, or the lack thereof

Hello Nomads! New year, new me, new post about TAGs and how they should have courage! Please, hold the applause.

Since this is a post that has been made a couple of times I am going to go swiftly through the thesis statement, and then address common arguments against it.

The issue at hand is Nomad TAGs do not have courage or religious, excluding the stigmata. They will fail a guts check 35% of the time, whereas every TAGs from 8 other in production factions will never flee from being hit by a pistol. TAGs typically do two jobs on the field, on the active turn they provide a powerful offensive piece and during the opponent’s turn they act as area denial. Even a light tag is typically armor 6 and three active wounds, throw that TAG in suppression with cover and now your opponent must deal with an effective armor 9 roadblock with a -6 modifier to being shot. Even without killing an enemy model it becomes a tough piece to eliminate and if placed well can hold a fire lane against anything but the heaviest of guns or another TAG. Nomad TAGs are offensively pretty good, but without courage or religious they fail at area denial and board control.I have seen games lost because a skirmisher or warband came up on a TAG and hit them with a pistol, the nomad TAG then failed the guts check and dropped suppression, from there it was summarily killed by other models. This is a uniquely nomad problem. If your gator is in cover, in suppression, and someone hits you with a power 11 pistol that can not harm the gator then that gator will drop suppression 35% of the time and flee. This situation creates an incongruous feel for the army. It means a nomad TAG plays inherently different from every other TAG because you can not depend on it to hold the line, one of the most basic aspects you’d expect from a walking tank. I have trouble recommending players who like mecha anime, or just even using big impressive miniatures, to play nomads because I know they will get disappointed the moment a skirmisher rounds the corner and gets a lucky pistol shot, causing their awesome szalamandra to duck behind a building and leaving a fire lane open. Heck it is so bad one of the common arguments I hear is “Nomads aren’t a TAG faction” having double or triple the number of TAGs of 6 other in production factions.


Now let’s discuss why Nomad TAGs may lack courage or religious. I believe sometime during beta testing It was decided that TAGs should be able to hold their ground, for the record a decision I agree with. In N3 it was not uncommon for TAGs to lack courage, in the N3 rulebook the Maggi was even an example on what to do if you fail a guts check and can't find better cover (Page 44, example 3). The Guijai similarly lacked courage, and at the time it did not have martial arts to grant it courage; that was an N4 addition (more on that later). Now nomads are the first army of infinity, we even have the first completed model and profile by which others are based and judged: the alguacil according to Carlos. We are also the closest the game has to a generalist faction and thus useful for establishing a baseline for multiple aspects of the game. I believe we were finished first to help establish a baseline for the game, then CB worked on the other factions and came up with some new ideas, and due to the chaos of 2020/2021 they never returned to the nomads to implement some of the ideas they created with the rest of the armies. I fully admit there is some conjecture there, but it lines up with public statements from Carlos and incongruencies with our TAGs compared to other factions.

Now with that done, let’s talk about some of the common arguments I hear:

First let us address the Fluff arguments. I want to make this clear, CB writes the fluff. It is not etched upon stone tablets delivered from on high by some divinity, but instead the work of talented writers. Which is to say, it is whatever CB wishes it to be. Diomedes and Patrocles are not septorised because it was an actual event that really happened in a war, but because CB decided to do so. For those who wish to claim the fluff determines everything in the game, tell that to a Spiral player because sales numbers definitely had an impact there. In short fluff is what it needs to be, but must be addressed regardless. Second, the fluff is partially propaganda for the faction, both in universe and for you the player. They want you to like your faction and the units, but that is not to say there isn’t an in-universe grain of truth. Are Geckos truly the “alpha predator of the corregidor pack”? No, that is clearly propaganda given the bombastic nature of the claim. Are geckos tactically treated like super heavy infantry? Yeah that sounds more grounded, and even on the tabletop that rings true. So basically you have to read between the lines and filter out some of the propaganda. Basic rule, if it is bombastic or overly complimentary then it is plausibly propaganda. If it is something that in our world sounds provable (e.g. if it were real could you look it up on google?), talks about legitimate tactical philosophy, or repeated in multiple places then it is in-universe at least partially true. Sorry for the aside on how to read the fluff, but it has come up in the past arguments, both in my own and in others. So let us discuss fluff:


“Nomad TAGs are expensive and so they don’t have courage/religious to preserve their TAGs”: This is pretty easy to disprove. On page 28 of the N4 core book it states

“The Quality of PanOcea’s TAGs is so superior that, with minimum maintenance, even the oldest models are devastating engines of destruction. A perfect example of this is the Reptile Series, recalled due to a design flaw and sold by the contractors to the Nomad Military Force. When the Black Laboratories of Praxis were done with it, the reptile series was a tough match, in terms of performance if not output, for the weapon factories of Yu-Jing”

On Page 118: Industrial engineering occupies another privileged position in the Praxis way of life. This section of Bakunnin is responsible for the update and optimization of all Reptile Series TAGs bought as military surplus from Panoceana. After undergoing the praxis treatment, the Reptile Series is a top-notch fighting machine on par with the modern products of the Yujinyu military industry with whom they compete in the international arms market.

So in two places in the N4 core book there are discussions on TAG appropriations with one section heavily implying they are military surplus, and later explicitly stated the Reptile Series is military surplus, not exactly something you’d think of as expensive.

As a follow up to that point, in the RPG a lizard is 75% the cost of the Guijia, it’s stated commercial competitor by both PanO and Nomads (Infinity RPG TAGS: Page 36).

Additionally Page 132 for the gecko:
“Geckos were doomed to the scrap heap when they caught the eye of the Corregidor military with their two main merits: they were small and dirt-cheap.”

Finally, the gator again talks about general TAG procurement for the Nomads
“For this reason, to provide its armed forces with military TAGs the Nomad Nation has always resorted to acquiring older series almost at the end of their service life, which are also quick to procure, well-tested, easy to maintain, and very inexpensive.”

So the writers, operating under word count and page limits, in the N4 books either imply or outright state nomad TAGs are cheap 4 times, and once was in another faction’s section. Given the constant repetition, factual nature of the discussion (few people brag about how cheap their weapons are), and the RPG Lizard price (Modiphius published it, but CB has creative control), I am inclined to say nomad TAGs are cheap by comparison to their contemporaries.

But even if nomad TAGs were the same price as their competitors, the nomads greatest resource is money. Tunguska *is* the black market of the human sphere, on Bakunnin the black labs produce and patent technology so advanced that even O12 buys it from them (the Zeta being an explicit example), and corregidor has lucrative mining contracts/prospecting rights across the sphere to the point it almost accidentally destabilized the Teseum market (The plot of Crimson Stone). In short, the nomads have money. If anything they should view the TAGs as disposable because they are cheap, easy to maintain, and act as a force multiplier. But their people/secrets/grip on the market are significantly harder to replace.

Sub argument: “But the upgrades to the TAGs are expensive”. Also false. The gator fluff in particular lists the many upgrades they make to it, but then undercuts that by noting how the nomads decrease the cost.

“But of course, they're still Nomads, which means that their competitive advantage isn't limited to their own intellectual property; in some cases, they also rely on innovations developed by others. Sometimes they pay for these innovations and sometimes they don't. It's a well-known fact that there is practically no Nomad technology firm that isn't currently involved in litigation for industrial espionage. This is the bride's "something borrowed
...
as the corporation Gang Tie accused Supremechanics of violating patent laws with the multi-component armor used on the Gator to make it more resistant to the piercing power of the ammunition developed after the NeoColonial Wars. After several years of litigation, the lawsuit filed by the Yujingyu corporation before the High Court of O-12 is still active and has not been settled, so Supremechanics can still use this innovative armor without paying a license fee for it. “

Other common tricks used are producing everything in house, using prison labor, bypassing regulations, and straight up theft. Additionally as stated earlier the Lizard even after all it’s upgrades is 75% the cost of the Guijai. Simply put, The fluff leans towards it being cheaper to upgrade existing military hardware that was cheaply mass produced in large quantities than it is to create brand new hardware in uncertain numbers. I must note, this is a military procurement strategy we see in the real world all the time (the B-52 Bomber will live forever!!!). The CB writers are really talented.

Sub Sub argument “Nomad TAGs are rare”: This is half true. form page 28, compared to Yu-Jing the Nomads do not produce the same volume of TAGs. I will note that does not mean nomad TAGs are rare as Nomad procurement does focus on easy to acquire TAGs, merely that the Black Labs out put is lower than the entire military industrial complex of a hyper power. Comparing the industrial output of a single ship to at least two planets seems a little unfair but that is where we are at. I will note scarcity of TAG frames and pilots have not stopped the Zeta from having courage “these units are also very scarce and only the best deserve to pilot them” (page 223) or the Maggi from having religious“Due to the scarcity of available units, High Command prefers not to risk them needlessly” (Page 158). So I think we can drop scarcity as a reason to deny a TAG courage or religious.

“Nomad TAGs are hard to maintain”: Let us read some fluff

Gator:
“For this reason, to provide its armed forces with military TAGs the Nomad Nation has always resorted to acquiring older series almost at the end of their service life, which are also quick to procure, well-tested, easy to maintain, and very inexpensive.”- bonus points for talking about not just the gator but the TAG procurement strategy of the nomad military as a whole.

This statement is further supported by page 28 of the N4 corebook:

“The Quality of PanOcea’s TAGs is so superior that, with minimum maintenance, even the oldest models are devastating engines of destruction. A perfect example of this is the Reptile Series, recalled due to a design flaw and sold by the contractors to the Nomad Military Force.””

Gecko:
“The Corregidor Jurisdictional Command also saw value in the simplicity of their design, which would make maintenance and repair efforts less demanding on the field.”- Here they are talking about field maintenance and thus definitely talking about post-upgrades finished products. Bonus fact, in the RPG TAG book it has a rule difficulty to repair the TAG and lowers the time to repair it by half (Page 13).

Iguana:
“but it has strong mechanical systems and is easy to repair on campaign.”- again, clearly post upgrades. Bonus fact, in the RPG TAG book it has a rule difficulty to repair the TAG and lowers the time to repair it by half (Page 15).

With one explicit discussion about overall procurement strategy of the nomads focusing on easy maintenance, another faction also noting the ease of maintenance of the Reptile Series, two explicit examples from their TAGs, and the RPG providing rules to make those two TAGs easier to repair and decreased time to repair, I think we can close the book on this argument. Heck with this much evidence you could argue our TAGs should have a better gizmokit value, but that is a discussion for another day…

“Nomad Pilots are not courageous”: Well funny fact, according to the fluff there are nomad pilots with courage, Anaconda pilots. These pilots once served in the corregidor jurisdictional command, but fired upon corregidor civilians and now don't work for the CJC. They have courage, and the two named pilots we know of one is from corregidor (the example anaconda. Infinity RPG TAGS Page 8) and the other is Neena Nandwa who has a swahili name, a language typically associated with nomads and in particular corregidor (Infinity RPG: Mercenaries, p.26). These are, according to fluff: they are corregidor pilots, in bakunin TAGs, funded by a tunguskan bank, and for at least two editions heavily implied to be a front for the Black Hand (N4 Corebook Page 252-253). They are more Nomad than hating Aleph and loving burritos. Thus, according to fluff, nomad pilots can have courage.


“In general nomads are not courageous/don’t stand their ground”: Well someone better tell our HI that (all but one has courage or religious), and the observance. Also these are people who choose to live in the most unforgiving environment we know of, space. This isn’t Star Trek where space travel is easy, it is more like The Expanse. Depressurization will kill you quickly, radiation can make you or your child brain dead, and need often dangerous maintenance. You have to be tough to live in space. Furthermore even the civilians are courageous in the face of the enemy, during Ravenseye a habitation module-ship chose to intercept a railgun shot that would have destroyed Corregidor. This was not a frigate of the CJCs finest, but civilians. The common clay of Corregidor chose to sacrifice so the ship may survive. Remember that, because “Corregidor No Olvida”.

With that I think I have covered the fluff arguments. So let’s move onto real world arguments. These basically cover game design, production considerations, and the occasional dip into real world problems CB has faced.

“Nomads are not a TAG faction”: This argument does not consider the cost in designing and producing models. I’ll be referencing the table below. The first column is the faction, the second column is how many TAGs are present in each faction, the third column is how many TAGs can be purchased for each faction from CB’s webstore, and the fourth column is how many siocast tags have been made for that faction.

Faction TAGs in the App TAGs in the Store Siocast TAGs

Pan-O 8 4 1
Yu-Jing 2 2 0
Ariadna 1 1 1
Haq 2 2 1
Nomads 6 6 3
CA 7 7 2
Aleph 3 3 3
NA2 3 2 1
O-12 1 1 0
Tohaa 1 0 0


I will note if a TAG appears in multiple factions then it was assigned a “home faction” and counted only once (e.g. Iguana is a nomad TAG and only counts for them even though they appear in QK, Maximus appears in Pan-O but is an Aleph TAG, etc). Basically a TAG does not count twice.

So for “not being a TAG faction” Nomads have double the median number of TAGs (median is 2.5), is 3rd for number of TAGs, 2nd for number of TAGs in the store (accounting for 21% of the TAG SKUs), and tied for the highest number of siocast TAGs, and that siocast number is equal to or greater than the number of any TAGs in 7 factions.

Now keep in mind these are some of the most expensive models to design and to produce. They are large with a lot of space for detail and multiple parts that must fit together, they require more material to produce, and weigh more for shipping. If we aren’t a TAG faction then CB is wasting A LOT of money on nomad TAGs.

“Nomads aren’t a TAG Faction (from a game design standpoint)”: If being a TAG Faction is the key to getting TAGs that don’t run from a pistol then Ariadna is a TAG faction. Haq Islam, is a TAG Faction. Yu-Jing, a faction that explicitly focuses on HI is a TAG Faction. I don't think anyone is going to argue that those factions are more of a “TAG Faction” than the nomads, So let us put that point to rest.

“From a game design perspective, nomads are not meant to have durable units that stand their ground”: Our heavy infantry alone counters this point. We have 1 HI without courage or religious (The Riot Grrl if you are curious), and this number does not change. Including characters? Still one. What about the mercs? Still one. Bakunnin only HI? Yes, one.

“But Nastrem HI are supposed to have courage or religious”, tell that to a Pan-O player (5 units without religious or courage), Haq player (3 units), or the HI faction Yu-Jing (6 non character HI) and that is just the general units, I did not include characters which will increase the number in some cases. Now some of those factions have more HI than nomads, but I doubt yu-jing has 48 HI units which it would need to have courage/religious at the same rate as the nomads (and that is assuming just the 8 HI in vanilla nomads, including bakunnin only units it goes to 60). Nomad HI are in fact pretty stout. For specific examples, Mobile Brigada are armor 5 but S2 whereas the standard for S2 HI is 3/4, and the Kriza is armor 5 BTS 6 and has mimetim, that qualifies as “durable” by any definition.

And finally even outside of HI, courage and religious are fairly common. All of this discussion ignores the Vostok, a rare example of a structure 2 remote. In addition, the vostok has armor 3, immunity(AP), mimetism -6, remote presence (needs to fail 4 saves to be removed from the board), a repeater so killer hackers can protect it, is a wild card in every sectorial, and ofcourse courage. We have durable units that stand their ground.

“You just want a super TAG”: Let’s address that argument in two parts. I don’t think asking for an armor 8 TAG and armor 11 in cover to not flee from a pistol (dropping it’s suppression and running) is a “super TAG”. I have *never* asked for a mimetism -6 TAG, or one with Camo, or even remote presence (happy to take it though, looking at you stigmata). I just want a TAG with a spine as stiff as the HI who barely reach its waist. So no, I do not wish for super TAGs…

But perhaps I am wrong, and that is in fact a super TAG. If TAGs that doesn’t run from pistols are super TAGs, then wouldn’t it be reasonable to say since CA has 7 super TAGs, Pan-O has 8, and all other in-production factions have these super TAGS then maybe Nomads should have a few more super TAGs? When other in production factions are rocking a 100% super TAG rate then maybe the nomads ~16% super TAG rate seems a bit low?

“But nomads have the best TAG support in the game, we don’t need courage/religious!”: I agree with the first part. We have more repeaters (one is even on a TAG), point for point the best hackers, a wip 15 engineer, and hidden deployment snipers (my favorite piece of TAG support). We are pretty awesome and do it the best, but we are not totally unique. If I may, I’d like to visit just one faction rather than run through every faction. Since the addition of O12 there has been another faction that is almost as good as us at TAG support. Repeaters and Pitchers? They are rarer, but exist in O12. A notable example of team sirius that can start with a repeater bot in the midfield and it is even a peripheral, so it can do some suicide runs to get people into hacking range without endangering an order. Hackers? They have plenty of options between midfield killer or regular hacker options on all their skirmishers and a dedicated hacker model in the cyber ghosts (wip 14 BTS 6, killer hacking device or hacking device plus, and has a pitcher). They might not be interventors, but cyberghosts certainly qualify as “good enough” at least for protecting their TAGs. Engineers? The lambda engineer is wip 14 and comparable to the clock maker in all other regards, however the Zeta has remote presence and thus they can re-roll an engineering roll if you spend a command token. That command token takes the success rate from 70% to 91% (30% chance of failure, has to fail twice=0.3*0.3=0.09. So success rate= 1-0.09=0.91). Compare that to the 75% chance of repairing a szalamadra (the closest thing we have to a zeta) and you get a 16% jump in your chances to revive the TAG. That is pretty slick, we’d have to have a wip 18 engineer to come close to that... Which O12 also has. Parvati is an aleph unit that O12 can take in both vanilla and in Starmada and thus since any O12 player can field her seems reasonable to include in this analysis. She has wip 15 with engineer +3, effectively wip 18 for engineering checks. She has a 90% chance to resurrect a TAG, and with the reroll it is 99%. I think I’ll give this point to O12. As for the snipers, the Lynx shoots better but lacks infiltration compared to our spektrs, I give it to the nomads personally since the spetkr can start in better sniper spots. So are nomads still the best at supporting TAGs? Yes. Are we wholly unique in our ability to do so? No, especially since O12 hit the scene.

Of course that discussion ignores the fact that none of our TAG support actually addresses the issue at hand, our TAGs flee from pistols. This isn’t like 40K where tyranids have poor leadership but being near a synapse creature negates it, or to use an infinity example Combined Army once upon a time didn’t have chain of command (they now do from the Caliban) but they had G:memonica to get around you killing their LT. There is no way to stop your TAG from dropping out of suppression due to a pistol hit in the Nomads, and it is a problem unique to nomad TAGs, and one without a solution.

“You should not compare across factions”: Why not, CB explicitly does and they are hardly the only company I can name that does so. But to dig into it, yes you should. Even with asymmetric factions you should compare in terms of abilities, counters, and broad strokes. Go watch game design videos particularly discussing starcraft and they will cover the zergling, zealot, and marine counters and abilities. They are three wholly different units, but are the basic combat unit of each faction and thus get compared (sometimes they throw in the hydralisk). That level of balance doesn’t occur *without* comparing between factions, this is just game design. Returning to infinity there are 9 in production factions, and 8 of them have a 100% rate of TAGs that don’t run from a cube jaeger’s pistol, for nomads it is 16%. I think that is a comparison we should talk more about.

“But the Gorgos and Triphammer lack courage and religious!”- If you have made it this far thank you, for some reason people keep thinking I don’t know these TAGs exist even when they are explicitly mentioned in my arguments. I guess they rarely make it this far. So let’s address why people think this is such a gotch’ya argument. These are legal to play TAGs that both lack courage and religious, and normally that would be a fair counter argument, but that argument lacks context. I believe nomad TAGs lack courage because of a problem in beta testing. So the proposed counter argument is to mention 1) a discontinued TAG from a discontinued faction that did not even live to see the end of N3, and 2) a kickstarter unit whose introduction required altering the booty table and those alterations happened *after* it was added to the app. To summarize, given the fact that neither TAG is sold directly by CB, that neither TAG belongs to a faction sold by CB, and other arguments keyed to each TAG I doubt these two TAGs received the full weight of beta testing that the Squallo received. So we have two TAGs that plausibly received less beta testing than other TAGs in the game, Nomad TAGs that plausibly had an error in beta testing, and they share a lack of courage or religious. Kind of makes the Gorgos and the Triphammer into evidence supporting my earlier points doesn’t it?

And the most recent argument “But last week they took away courage from the Maggi”: That would be a reasonable argument, if CB also took away religious from that TAG. Earlier I mentioned in N3 the Maggi didn’t have courage or religious, well in the transition to N4 someone must have pitied the poor thing because it got both! Since the start of N4 it had courage and religious which is redundant since the presence of courage negates the presence of religious. In lay man’s terms, Religious flips the results of a guts check (if you fail you stand your ground, if you pass you may choose to seek cover), and courage lets you just pick your result. So what is the point of flipping the results if you can just pick? It was a clear typo, one that persisted for three and a half years, and one that proves a point: CB makes mistakes. They have to keep track of hundreds of individual units and I bet at least triple that many profiles. Some TAG was bound to slip through the cracks and accidentally get both rules as they pushed for N4 TAGs to be able to stand their ground. In this case I earnestly believe the Maggi was meant to have religious but accidentally got both. And I’ll note, if we count June 2020 as the start of N4 (the publication date on the first edition N4 core book) that mistake persisted for just a little over 3 and a half years. That is a long time to have a glaring error for a TAG in a faction with only two TAGs. This isn’t even the longest case of a typo being allowed to persist, that might be the reverend healer being mimetism -3, a typo that was present in N3 and persisted until the N4 bakunnin rework. Maggi isn’t even 2nd place, the timer is still running on Zeta's ECM: Guided-8. Sidebar: it is not -6 like every other instance on ECM Guided. If it were -3 or even -9 like every other “to hit” modifier in the game I could believe it, but when have you seen a “to hit” modifier that was not a multiple of 3? Point is, CB makes mistakes, and that is okay. But as the Maggi has shown, those mistakes can be fixed.

To my final point, why do I do this? This is my third or fourth post on this topic, and I have been treated as well as you’d expect by a faction that partly draws cultural inspiration from real world internet trolls (love you guys, but we have a sour reputation for a reason). The answer is simple, CB sometimes listens. When the reinforcements update removed the Squallo MKI the app the Pan-O players were justifiably incensed. CB removed a model without making it’s replacement available in stores. That is a legit gripe. Through their actions the Pan-O players were able to get the original squallo put back into the app. Additionally when the roadbot was unveiled for O12 it was listed as being in vanilla, an admitted typo on the part of CB as it was meant to be sectorial only. However the O12 players liked having it available in vanilla and pressured CB to put it in vanilla as well.

CB Listens, and the nomads are one of the most popular factions. If we started commenting and messaging CB we could get them to change an oversight that runs counter to how TAGs are played in every other in-production faction and I dare say how logically should play. Otherwise… I guess we could continue having TAGs that run from pistols while all the other TAGs laugh at them for it.

If you made it this far thank you, and remember the immortal words of Leonard J. Church “People with tanks are never outnumbered”

 

First, Thank you for a measured response. It's nice to see.

I am not saying Nomad TAGs are bad, just that they lack a basic tool in their tool box that we see everywhere else. I think it may be worth asking "If lacking courage or religious was not a problem for TAGs, then why did CB change that for the Guijai, the Maggi, and other TAGs moving forward to N4?". I don't think using a high burst gun or a long range gun to break enemy suppression is all that niche. TAGs and the importance of suppression as a defensive tool and area denial ability is covered extensively in the post "A Primer on Tactical Armored Gear Operations", it was written for a N3 but holds up well and is worth a read. https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threads/a-primer-on-tactical-armoured-gear-operations.805/

Szaly is good on the offense, but defensively it is weird when it flees from nearly harmless guns. It is arm 8 BTS 9 one of the toughest stat profiles in the game, and yet flees from pistols? Just feels very weird. I can't speak to the community's opinion on it. but Goonhammer rates them as a B+ which in my experience is about right for them (and lower than Zeta and Dragao which are As, which is also about right). https://www.goonhammer.com/infinity-tag-tier-list/

Honestly, I use the pistol as kind of an extreme scenario because it makes the point that "Tanks really shouldn't be fleeing from pistols". The more common occurrence is a spitfire or Red Fury, high burst guns that usually you would not bother shooting at a TAG but can force a guts check. The situation of a TAG dropping suppression due to being hit does come up a fair bit. A TAG in suppression is an excellent lane holder and area denial piece, and discussed thoroughly in the TAG Primer. Nomads not being able to do it when every other faction can feels weird, especially since area denial is one of our tricks. As for our lack of command skills, that is true but not germane. Our lack of command skills do not prevent Nomad Heavy Infantry from having courage and religious at a higher rate than Yu-Jing, or from from it being pretty prevalent else where in the list. Just seams weird that the armor 3 and 1 wound/NWI Evader is more willing to stand and fight than the structure 3 armor 8 Gator, kind of causes cognitive dissonance.

As for Maggi and religious being a boon or a drawback, that requires more detail and I already wrote about 9 pages. May I just say, there are certainly situations both ways where it helps or hinders. To be brief, it is a TAG that used to run from pistols, but in N4 they made sure it doesn't anymore as part of a larger move to make TAGs into resilient units that stand their ground. I use it as an example because it was the literal N3 example of a TAG that can fail a guts check.

I frankly want more giant robots in the game cause they are awesome, doesn't matter the faction. I mostly point out the numbers because I have heard "We aren't a TAG faction" so wearily often and it's kind of odd claim given the number of TAGs we have. Makes me want to ask "If we aren't a TAG faction, then why am I drowning in TAGs?". I don't think our number of nomad TAGs is an issue per say, but certainly I want them to play a little better or at least make a little more sense.

 

Sorry, I missed the part about the Lizard and Iguana. Yeah they have problems that extend beyond not having courage. There is another post where I go through more a thorough discussion of how to improve them, but making it harder to knock them out of suppression would be a boon to them.

If you are curious my suggestions for the iguana was 1) give it an AP spitfire profile, it feels like a TAG that should love the midfield so give it a midfield gun and it was a commonly added profile for TAGs with HMG profiles moving into N4. 2) let the Operator push buttons, right now it is the only pilot/operator that can't, used to be a thing in N3 that operators can't push buttons but Anaconda broke that ruling in N4. 3) courage (obviously), 4) most contentious suggestion is Armor 7 in TAG form, I'd honestly need to see some play testing to make sure it doesn't get too beefy with that and the other changes but armor seven is good enough for the anaconda so it is at least worth testing.

As for the lizard, it's profile is new enough I want more time to play with it and test it before suggesting changes (other than courage)

Thank you again for an even response.

 

An interesting theory, but I don't think it quite applies. We currently use three versions of the M1 Abrams and that does not the cover the dozen iterations we previously used, include 9 specialized chassis, or the various optional equipment load outs. To say we just use the Abrams is not accurate. Further we use multiple varieties of armored fighting vehicles for different roles. We have the Booker, Bradley, and Stryker to name a few. Applying this to the reptile series, it would be more like a series of related but unique vehicles produced by a single company. Though we don't know how many different chassis were in the reptile series we know it was at least 3 and they served different combat roles, one for the Gecko "Geckos were the lightest and smallest T.A.G. model in the Reptile series, as well as the first to become obsolete.", the gator mentions "Within this series, the Gator model was the medium combat TAG, a multipurpose war machine designed to become the core element of any armored strike force.", and the anaconda "a heavy reconnaissance TAG model from the reptile series". It would be more fair to assume that the nomads are utilizing various models of the reptile series to fit the tactical needs of their individual jurisdictional commands rather than forcing one single TAG model to serve multiple tactical roles, explaining why they have so many different MBTs.

Additionally the nomads are in very different situation than Ukraine. The nomads do not rely upon foreign aid for military procurement, but instead buy their war material and we know they are cautious to make sure their materials are up to market standard at minimum. From the gator fluff, we know they actually retire TAGs due to poor performance "Thus, when the time came to replace the Baozhão ("Panther Claw") series TAGs that the Nomad Military Force had successfully used up to the NeoColonial Wars, they stuck to policy." So they no longer use "various obsolete or commercial chassis". The Reptile Series may be old, but it is just right to the nomads and by all N4 accounts the only TAG series they use.

As for trusting their machines, Anacondas and Lizards in particular are known for being modified by the pilots and often named with traditions and taboos accompanying the practice. In our world, that sort of behavior is typically the result of affection and trust for the machine. Additionally you need citations suggesting shoddy craftsmanship for nomad TAGs, So far I have found only evidence that they are at least as capable as Yu-Jing TAGS on a mechanical basis (we actually have a higher phys, but guijai has super jump so let's call that a wash), and easy to maintain on multiple accounts which would would imply very few "dangling wires".

 

Perhaps, but it is worth a read.

 

Thank you for a measured response. It is nice to see after this tiring day.

Correct that the TAG may remain in place depending on the cover you have taken after a failed guts check, but a failed guts check removes also removes suppression. For a thorough discussion on how suppression may be used to increase your TAG's survival and provide increased area denial I suggest reading the TAG Primer. I am on mobile at the moment but is linked in one of my previous comments. The effects of dropping your suppression are rather stark on the survivability on your TAG.

As for the rest of your argument it brings some interesting points but I do not think it works. First, it assumes Wartechworks is not continuing to produce parts and models for the reptile series. That company was about to retire the reptile series but then the nomad military showed up with a check book, few companies stop making a lucrative product with a ready buyer. Further, from the gator fluff we know the reptile series is explicitly easy to procure, implying it is still in production on some level. We must also keep in mind, the nomads have sufficient TAGs that they continue to sell their upgraded versions in direct competition with YuJing TAGs, not an action one would expect of a nation sitting on a diminishing number of TAGs. Additionally, when materiel is easy to procure, easy to repair, and cheap it encourages reckless behavior rather than cautious behavior. You may not get an upgrade, but you are likely to get a replacement.

Additionally if we did read between the lines and say the reptile series is a dying design and becoming scarce then it would not be reason to deny courage or religious. Both the Zeta and the Maggi are explicitly called out for scarcity but have courage and religious regardless. We can put the scarcity argument to bed as it has not kept any TAGs from standing their ground even when explicitly stated in their fluff.

 

I appreciate your comment regarding positioning of the TAG, it is a silver lining. However losing suppressive fire within 18 inches is a rather marked drawback. I did not want to break out numbers because frankly there is enough nit picking here already and that just tends to intensify it, but here we go.


Assume an Evader with AP spitfire is shooting a gator in suppression from within 16", both are in cover. Gator is standing on the objective because that is a great place to park your tank and make sure on one else takes it, basically the opponent HAS to remove your TAG to win.
With suppression the face to face win rate of the evader is 45.1 vs. 45.0, pretty even I'd say and the average number of wounds per order is 0.31. Meaning on average the evader has to spend ten orders to kill the gator... assuming it survives that long given the tag inflicts 0.42 wounds per ARO, meaning the evader dies on average after order 6, well before the TAG dies on order 10.
https://infinitythecalculator.com/?...=false&dtwVsDodge=false&fixedFaceToFace=false

Now let's drop the suppression due to a bad guts check but give the gator positive range bands now (engagement is at exactly 16". I am comparing the two best case scenarios).
now the evader wins 73% of the time and the Gator wins 21.6% of the time. Also evader inflicts on average 0.61 wounds per order, compared to the gator's 0.34 wounds per ARO.
https://infinitythecalculator.com/?...=false&dtwVsDodge=false&fixedFaceToFace=false

The drop in survivability is literally the difference of 5 orders and the evader on average killing the TAG before the gator kills the Evader. Since the gator fails a guts check 35% of the time it should on average require no more than 3 guts checks to fail and lose suppression. If the opponent has jaguars/morlocks/other disposable template throwers it is better for the opponent to sacrifice 3 of them on the TAG to get it to fail a gets check, and then spend five orders on the evader for a total of 8 orders. That is insane and only happens with nomad TAGs. The Maggi and the Guijai had this problem in N3, but not anymore. CB went out of their way to remove this possibility for every other faction for a reason. This is why a TAG not having courage or religious is a problem.

Also the results if the gun fight happens at 15". Face to face 84.2% vs. 11.6%, and honestly the more realistic scenario, but I prefer the stark contrast of the two "best case scenarios" (Suppression vs. positive range bands)
https://infinitythecalculator.com/?...=false&dtwVsDodge=false&fixedFaceToFace=false

P.S. realized the jaguar thing while illustrative is "too niche" for some people... so replace it with using a mim-6 combi rifle. Does the same thing for knocking out the suppression and is just as illustrative. Basically it is worth throwing troops with realistically no chance of harming the TAG at the problem in order to save 5 orders, a tactic that only works against nomad TAGs.

Now for the fluff. I am glad you read the RPG books, they are a great source of information. I highly suggest the TAGS book if you do not own it. From Infinity RPG TAGS we find rules regarding how to alter the gecko and iguana stat line (lowering their BTS to 3) if they are purchased from non-nomad sources, which means there are nomad sources from which to buy them (page 36). I also will note, from the table and rules accompanying it, non-nomad sources are the deviation and not the assumed source.

Leaving behind the RPG, we know from the N4 corebook On page 28: “The Quality of PanOcea’s TAGs is so superior that, with minimum maintenance, even the oldest models are devastating engines of destruction. A perfect example of this is the Reptile Series, recalled due to a design flaw and sold by the contractors to the Nomad Military Force. When the Black Laboratories of Praxis were done with it, the reptile series was a tough match, in terms of performance if not output, for the weapon factories of Yu-Jing”. That is not just talking about how they stack up on the battlefield, that is talking about manufacturing and market shares.

Also from the N4 corebook on Page 118: Industrial engineering occupies another privileged position in the Praxis way of life. This section of Bakunnin is responsible for the update and optimization of all Reptile Series TAGs bought as military surplus from Panoceana. After undergoing the praxis treatment, the Reptile Series is a top-notch fighting machine on par with the modern products of the Yujinyu military industry with whom they compete in the international arms market."

So let's lay it to rest, the nomads are clearly selling TAGs. Less volume than YuJing (again the output of one large ship vs. a planet feels unfair), but clearly enough to have a significant share in the international arms market. Since they have a market share in the international weapons market, particularly pertaining to TAGs, then the TAGs are clearly not scarce and makes the situation of a diminishing stockpile exceptionally unlikely.

 

Please excuse the double response, you had asked if lacking courage/religious was a game balance issue. These posts finally pushed me to sit down and enter the calculations and thought you may appreciate seeing the numbers. I did not want to break out numbers because frankly there is enough nit picking here already and that just tends to intensify it, but here we go.

Assume an Evader with AP spitfire is shooting a gator in suppression from within 16", both are in cover. Gator is standing on the objective because that is a great place to park your tank and make sure no one else takes it, basically the opponent HAS to remove your TAG to win.
With suppression the face to face win rate of the evader is 45.1 vs. 45.0, pretty even I'd say and the average number of wounds per order is 0.31. Meaning on average the evader has to spend ten orders to kill the gator... assuming it survives that long given the tag inflicts 0.42 wounds per ARO, meaning the evader dies on average after order 5, well before the TAG dies on order 10.
https://infinitythecalculator.com/?...=false&dtwVsDodge=false&fixedFaceToFace=false

Now let's drop the suppression due to a bad guts check but give the gator positive range bands now (engagement is at exactly 16". I am comparing the two best case scenarios).
now the evader wins 73% of the time and the Gator wins 21.6% of the time. Also evader inflicts on average 0.61 wounds per order, compared to the gator's 0.34 wounds per ARO.
https://infinitythecalculator.com/?...=false&dtwVsDodge=false&fixedFaceToFace=false

The drop in survivability is literally the difference of 5 orders and the evader on average killing the TAG before the gator kills the Evader. Since the gator fails a guts check 35% of the time it should on average require no more than 3 guts checks to fail and lose suppression. If the opponent has jaguars/morlocks/other disposable template throwers it is better for the opponent to sacrifice 3 of them on the TAG to get it to fail a gets check, and then spend five orders on the evader for a total of 8 orders. That is insane, that it is tactically better to sacrifice 3 models and you still come out ahead and it only happens with nomad TAGs. The Maggi and the Guijai had this problem in N3, but not anymore. CB went out of their way to remove this possibility for every other faction for a reason. This is why a TAG not having courage or religious is a problem.

P.S. realized the jaguar thing while illustrative is "too niche" for some people... so replace it with using a mim-6 combi rifle. Does the same thing for knocking out the suppression and is just as illustrative. Basically it is worth throwing troops with realistically no chance of harming the TAG at the problem in order to save 5 orders, a tactic that only works against nomad TAGs.