NWI, Dogged, 2W Rebalancing

So you basically advocate adding Transformation (W) and a Battle Ravaged state to everything with No Wound Incapacipation skill...?

I'd be against that.
It is adding a level of complexity to the rule.

 

this

 

I generally agree with the sentiment that NWI+Shock Immunity is better than 2W, but I think the solutions presented here might be a little too tangled in practice.

I think a better approach would be a general rebalance that makes shock immunity a lot rarer (and also in turn make shock ammo a lot rarer).

It'd also help a lot to make doctoring from uncon a lot better, but I'm not sure how to do that. A good start would be making it so a failed doc/engi attempt doesn't inflict wounds.

Maybe something like if you successfully doc/engi something out uncon, you gain an order? So doctoring/engineering stuff is a little less order intensive/inefficient?

 

Would you care to elaborate?

From what I see:

• 2 W - you take a wound, you keep going, you take a 2nd wound you fall. Maybe there will be a Doctor / Paramedic close enough (and with Orders to spare) to revive you.
• NWI - you take a wound, you keep going ,you take a 2nd wound, you're off the table, fullstop.

Sure there are situations where it is convenient not to leave an Unconscious model behind (you can't fire a Template to affect your own model, and also there are Objectives that can be achieved by interacting with an Unconscious model).

At the same time, if there's even a remote chance that a Doc / Paramedic can get there and revive the unconscious model, the opponent needs to take it into account. Which often means spending a valuable Order(s) on getting rid of said Unconscious model. And not always successfully.

So being able to stay in Unconscious state may be both an advantage and disadvantage (though in my experience, a benefit more often than not!), depending on a situation.

NWI... just off the table, no more to do there (nb. I'd much more like the Exrach to be written down as 0 W NWI, rather than the odd 1 W Exrach rule they got - we'd be one special rule - the Exrach - less. And the effect of the flyswatter on the bug would still be there...).

 

Haidao and Zhencha aren't "low tech HI", they are high tech HI that has had medical modules removed for mobility reasons; the reason for their... 4-4... MOV. Yeah.
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I don't think there's anything to gain from "correcting" the difference between NWI and 2W. Personally, I prefer proper 2W over NWI and find the cost difference to be about on par with the what I think I can tactically gain from the two (somewhere between 1 and 2 points, btw).

There's been a huge inflation of 6-2 units, and I don't think most units should have this mobility, and that several that doesn't get it needs it. This has nothing to do with NWI, however.

 

Aside from the issues that uncon bodies pose with classifieds that you've already pointed out, it comes down to NWI+Shock Immunity being cheaper points wise than 2Ws by a decent margin and the fact that I really don't rate paramedics/doctors that much.

When a piece goes down into uncon during your reactive turn, you are already operating an order down - assuming the best case scenario where you have a doctor/servant bot naught but an order away from the uncon trooper, you still have to spend an order (and potentially CTs) to get them back up. It's an net order positive play only on turn 1 assuming that unit doesn't get knocked back down and net neutral on turn 2.

All of this is also assuming the best case scenario - the math only gets worse and worse with the more orders you need to spend getting a doctor to where they need to go.

I think the result of this math is that doctoring only ever feels worthwhile when it's in support of a mission critical piece ala Knauf, or in the context of a fireteam, where your pieces have to be fairly close together, and you can still move other stuff around while doctoring.

These issues also extend to engis, but engis tend to be a bit more applicable in my experience because they tend to support TAGs, which are big, mission critical centerpieces. Also clearing states imposed by hacking is very useful.

 

I'd say that - since the introduction of 3-turn-limit - doctoring is not net order positive.

Sure, when calculated as a closed system (orders I need to spend vs orders I'll get in subsequent turns)your example holds, but I maintian that wheen seen in overall context of a game, it is an order you won't be spending towards achieving your goals (we exclude Classifed Objectives that include doctoring a friendly model here) that turn.

Therefore, I claim, it is useless to doctor models for the sole goal of getting back a model that'll generate us an Order next turn.
It is, however, a very useful ability when you need to bring back a model that has a certain ability you are in a dire need of in a given situation - say, a MSV, Hacker, support weapon, or simply a very competent primary combatant. Note that quite a few of these are high cost models (which counts towards your Retreat threshold, and in some missions, is how Victory Points are determined - by the amount of Army points still alive at the end / controlling - or denying enemy the control of -specific spaces).

In these cases, with a model who went Unconscious has a decent chance of coming back into action after getting healed.
A model who ran out of NWI, well, doesn't. Which is the price the "bargain bin" HI (NWI + I:Shock) pay for being that much cheaper, true.

 

While I agree that the proliferation of shock and shock immunity is part of the problem with 2W vs. NWI+shock immune balancing, I think the underlying issue is how recovering from unconscious works. You spend orders for a still substantial chance of killing your model anyways.

I like the idea of getting an order back when a unit recovers from unconscious, since this helps offset the order expenditure required to doctor/engineer. I don't think a regular order would be too much, but at least an irregular for the model that recovered.

I've mentioned this before, but I also feel like the states phase has been a huge missed opportunity in N4. I would propose eliminating the rule that failing a doctor/engineer roll kills the target and then add a state's phase action that allows each doctor/engineer to attempt one roll to heal/repair or clear states for one model within their ZoC (or something to that effect). This would simultaneously boost the value of 2W models and doctors/engineers, and since it occurs in the states phase, that model will still generate its order on your next turn.

 

I would like to see more of a shift towards making the big brain part of the game to being less about restoring the simulation aspect and putting it where it belongs. In execution.

 

I don't disagree at all - doctoring for the sake of regaining orders is almost never worth it. The point was I was more trying to illustrate is just how order inefficient doctoring is. When you need to doctor something, you are already playing with an order down - doctoring a unit only contributes further to that!

If you 100% need the capabilities of a piece that went down, it's fine to doctor it, but I find myself often going to alternative strategies when situations like that come up in game. If my Namurr goes down, and is ~2 orders away from my Ghulam doc, I'd rather go and use those orders instead to make a counterattack with Zuleyka, opposed to reviving my Namurr and then doing something.

 

Make troopers generate their order if they're doctored mid-turn and didn't previously generate their order.

I think this would make Doctors worth fielding, and be a great indirext buff to non-NWI troopers at the same time.

 

maybe not, but having an irregular order for themselves once revived could be interesting

 

Shock Immunity and shock weapons need to disappear in N5, bloat that does very little except allow CB to cheat points formula. Game will be better without all that. Same goes for frenzy, but that is another topic.

 

Both of these are, IMO, a can of worms we don't want to actually open:

• like, every time a model is brought back form Unconscious they get an Order? Keep in mind a model can be brought back multiple times a turn (I'm Unconscious, I get Doctored, I come back with an Order. I spend that Order, I get hit, I fall Unconscious again, get Doctored again, get up with an Order, spend it, get downed... rinse, repeat...). And tracking it adds to the rules.
• getting up with an Irregular Order might be somewhat a nod towards "realism" (because, lets face it, not really realistic. Infinity doesn't give a damn about realism, honestly. Which is fine - the game is fun), but it is of limited usefulness with Regular models that are intended to operate in a Fireteam (less so to models who are operating solo), therefore favoring vanilla armies, and disfavouring Sectorials.

I disagree. Frenzy would be just fine if we scratched the "being in a Fireteam negates Frenzy" rule. which, actually, is a N2 legacy rule.
Nowadays entering Frenzy gives you two things:

1. Impetous Order, which you may use or discard at your leisure. Being in a Fireteam, you'd break out of it if you spent the non-Regular Order (like Impetous one) - but you are free to discard the Order, so no biggie.
2. Inability to gain Partial Cover. I see no reason why it should be incompatible with being in a Fireteam: so, the model stays with his buddies, but in the heat of battle they recklessly expose themselves to enemy fire...)

 

That's not always true. You can doctor a mini during turn 1, which could result in a net gain of one order (plus all the benefits of having the mini back, of course). This can even be several orders if you start considering the numerous minis with Impetuous, Tac Awareness, etc...

 

On doctoring: it's all about who you doctor. If you have the opportunity to doctor an important unit, and succeed, then that is absolutely huge. Doesn't matter if the unit doesn't generate orders or if you spent a couple getting the doctor there (which is the reason why linked Paramedic is such a game changer).
Having your opponent's doctor accidentally use their service revolver instead of medikit is, likewise, a huge rush of relief when it happens if the target they attempt is the important.

For targets that don't actually matter, then I agree, doctoring isn't very good and definitely a net loss in orders, so is something you should only do if there's literally nothing you can do to advance the game state. Is that a bad thing, though?

To me, the issue is more that Doctor is an expensive skill that inevitably comes on a trooper with the game's worst gun (combi rifle) more than the skill's function and game impact. At 4 points, I can definitely agree that it is a skill that you feel like you need to use to get value out of.

(And that only one faction family can do it well is one of the few remaining faction flavours that hasn't been doled out like lanyards at a convention)

 

Totally Agree, Both those things aren't great - Honestly, NWI could be removed, and besides fluff, the game would likely be cleaner.

As for the original thread, personally, I don't think NWI+Shock Immune is bad, it's nearly the same cost cost as True 2 wounds, and sits as a 'quasi 2 wounds' for guys CB doesn't want to give true 2 wounds for fluff reasons.

IMHO, healing is actually often used now, since paramedic in fireteam makes Healing heavies very efficient. Getting back your hardest hitter while moving up the board is indeed great value for many, many missions. It often forces the opponent to waste an order or two to remove an already downed Heavy so you can't bring them back up. I see it used far more these days than in N3, so I'm not sure why you'd say 2 wounds is not good.

I think there is some seeming skew because you see a lot of good Light infantry (generally characters) who are REALLY good for NWI+shock immune, but if you compare them to true 2 wound light infantry, you'll see that the true 2 wounds upgrade is not actually that expensive. The issue is not IMHO NWI+Shock Immune vs 2 wounds, but the cost efficiency of the other stuff.

If anything, just making Dogged cheaper, and NWI without shock immune cheaper, would make them feel different and more interesting.

That said, DOCTORS themselves are paradoxically not worth it, as paramedics in links are often better at healing guys, even excluding the order efficiency. But that's not exactly related to what you're trying to get at.