I can see KoJ duo with bulleteer working great, it is something I have used to great effect in MO and Svalarheima does not have De Fersen to contest the spot as a far better hacking option that the KoJ hacker.
OK. So the games I played KoJ are not tournament, friendly games to try new ITS season missions and experiments. What I played is link him with Karhu engineer or paramedic, depending on mission and other components, and some guns. Karhu bring KoJ to position with NCO, KoJ does some missions, hacking, and some rifle-range gunfight, and gun does gun thing. Last Launch ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 9 KARHU (Paramedic) MULTI Rifle, Blitzen, AP Mines ( | MediKit) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 28) KNIGHT OF JUSTICE (Hacker, Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, D-Charges ( ) / Heavy Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0.5 | 46) NISSE MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 33) ORC WinterFor (Terrain [Mountain], Climbing Plus]) Boarding Shotgun ( | TinBot: Firewall [-3]) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 32) FUSILIER Combi Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 10) FUSILIER (Lieutenant) Combi Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 10) FUSILIER (Paramedic) Combi Rifle ( | MediKit) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 12) FUSILIER (Hacker, Hacking Device) Combi Rifle ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 15) FUSILIER Missile Launcher / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 15) GROUP 2 5 1 1 MULEBOT (Hacker, EVO Hacking Device) ( ) / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0.5 | 15) LOCUST (Hacker, Killer Hacking Device) Breaker Combi Rifle, D-Charges ( ) / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 32) LIANG KAI Chain Rifle, Light Shotgun, Flash Pulse / Pistol, EXP CC Weapon. (0 | 21) FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 7) FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 7) BEASTHUNTERS (Surprise Attack [-3], Camouflage, Forward Deployment [+8"]) Heavy Flamethrower(+1B), Panzerfaust, AP Mines / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 17) 4.5 SWC | 300 Points Open in Infinity Army I played this for the Last Launch against White Co I remember. Started game with haris of KoJ, Karhu, and Nisse to clear firelanes with Nisse. After that, linked KoJ and Karhu with shotgun Orc to move forward and clear the objective room. The result was I shoot my EVO remote while killing all my opponent's specialists, but KoJ, Karhu, and Orc haris did pretty good work at the objective room against Varangian duo and hacker. EDIT1 : I think I had to take Varuna stealth shotgun Orc but that is an off-topic. Frontline ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 5 2 KARHU (Engineer, Deactivator) MULTI Rifle, Blitzen, D-Charges ( | GizmoKit) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 29) KNIGHT OF JUSTICE (Hacker, Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, D-Charges ( ) / Heavy Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0.5 | 46) NISSE MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 33) LOCUST (Hacker, Killer Hacking Device) Breaker Combi Rifle, D-Charges ( ) / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 32) FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 7) BEASTHUNTER FTO (Minelayer) Heavy Flamethrower, Panzerfaust, AP Mines / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 9) WARCOR (Sixth Sense) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 3) GROUP 2 8 FUSILIER Missile Launcher / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 15) FUSILIER (Lieutenant) Combi Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 10) FUSILIER Combi Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 10) FUSILIER Combi Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 10) FUSILIER (Paramedic) Combi Rifle ( | MediKit) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 12) VARG (Minelayer) K1 Marksman Rifle, Shock Mines / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 30) ORC Heavy Machine Gun / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 37) AGNES Submachine Gun, Nanopulser / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 14) 5 SWC | 297 Points Open in Infinity Army This is a list I played for Frontline against Dashat to try two haris and a core. I lost it badly because my KoJ died on top of round 3 by rifle shots from Ghulam haris in a single order (which was my opponent's last order). KoJ was outside cover and I got into retreat when I lost him. But he could do missions and take sectors by himself if he survived that rifle shots. Countermeasures ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 10 FUSILIER (Commlink [+1], Specialist Operative) Combi Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 20) KARHU (Engineer, Deactivator) MULTI Rifle, Blitzen, D-Charges ( | GizmoKit) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 29) INFIRMARER Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon. (0 | 25) ORC (Lieutenant) Heavy Machine Gun / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1 | 37) KNIGHT OF JUSTICE (Hacker, Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, D-Charges ( ) / Heavy Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0.5 | 46) MULEBOT (Hacker, EVO Hacking Device) ( ) / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0.5 | 15) PEACEMAKER Heavy Shotgun / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 24) AUXBOT_3 Heavy Flamethrower / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 4) NØKK (Hacker, Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Light Shotgun ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 28) FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 7) FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 7) GROUP 2 2 BEASTHUNTER FTO (Minelayer) Heavy Flamethrower, Panzerfaust, AP Mines / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 9) WARCOR (Sixth Sense) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 3) GROUP 3 3 2 SQUALO Mk-II REINF MULTI Marksman Rifle / MULTI Pistol(+1B), CC Weapon. (1 | 57) CRABBOT Flash Pulse / CC Weapon. (0 | 0) BLADE REINF (Engineer, Tactical Awareness) Submachine Gun, D-Charges ( | GizmoKit) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 24) PATHFINDER DRONBOT REINF MULTI Rifle, Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 17) 3.5 SWC | 348 Points Open in Infinity Army This is a list for Countermeasures with reinforcement and I played him with a fully mixed core. It was close loss by 1 classified. KoJ was in the core while Orc was shooting and I sent him to my opponent's half to do missions while others tried defense near my deployment zone. I got good missions for him but KoJ did more than 2 classified in a turn by him alone. So yeah, they are expensive, KoJ and Karhu specialist cost ~75 pt for their own and I added another gunner there. The good thing is I can add them into any linkable unit while each of them can deal with opponent's threats. KoJ was durable enough to do missions, hacking, rifle-range firefight, and even CC,. Karhu cleared camo and mimetism guys. They lack long-range firepower or template weapons so I usually added someone who can fill that role. KoJ himself might not be satisfying, but I think him and Karhu being wildcard makes them more powerful in WinterFor. About the "trash" talk, I agree that Jotums are (a bit) overpriced and there are many other TAG options in generic PanO who can do as well as or better than Jotum. However, I think trash is way too much for Jotum. I would rate Jotum 6-7 out of 10, while 9 for Helot and Cutter, 2-3 for Gunnar and Oktavia (in generic PanO). I think it's matter of standard for "trash", like "everything not great is trash" or "trash is the word for the extremely terrible unusable units". I think there's nothing wrong on each side but it seems like you're on the former but I'm on the latter.
Thanks for you both for your insight! I find it interesting that in the case of @Sungwon the KoJ hacker it's being used without pairing it with the clipper, as I would have presume that doubling down into the hacking package would help to justify the significant points used of the KoJ hacker. So he is used as a pure Mission Specialist and Rifle Gunner with the ocasional CC bonk for him. Do I correctly think that in your case @psychoticstorm of a SWF Duo of Bulleter + KoJ Hacker a clipper would be used in the list as you have already experimented with something similar in the past for MO?
In MO, he KoJ is not a bad profile, but its loadout is suboptimal (a polite way of saying crap). Combi rifle profiles are not worth the cost. Spitfires are kind of OK, but the most interesting profile (the FwD, 1SWC spitfire) costs 50 points. Remember that for 49 points the KoTHS has a +1 Dam, +1 B MMR, which is essentially a spitfire but better. As a shooting platform for the spitfire, also the KoS can achieve exactly the same for a few less points. The ML is another interesting option that unfortunately falls short, in this case because of its crappy linkability options. Best case scenario in a full crosier link, the KoJ can shoot at BS15 2B. Not that great to be honest for "the best shooting faction of the game". And for a faction that has probably the shittiest linkable long range gunfighters of all the game (This dude or the crosier sniper, both of which shoot at BS 15 in the best conditions with no visors). Apart from all the problems common to Pano and its sectorials, linkability remains a huge issue in MO. It struggles to achieve full linkability bonuses with the heavy hitters (as far as I remember, only through the Crusader Core is this achievable), leaving the BS values of the key pieces below the BS of nomads, Aleph or even Haqq linked units. Please remember that we're still talking about "the best shooting faction in the game". And as for shitty linkability, don't get me started on the Black Friar MSR. The question that remains unanswered is, what is the KoJ purpose in MO that cannot be achieved by any other HI? Besides carrying a slightly different loadout.
I am more interested in the role and purpose of the KoJ in SWF to be honest. Where he may have a opportunity?
Correct the duo of Buleteers and Hacker works surprisingly well, especially killing hackers, unfortunately KoJ does not have a KH profile, but it can use its other programs to affect its target, I use the same in NCA with bolt hacker/ KH and Bulleteer duos.
Sure, but the doctor saying you're perfectly healthy except for that bullet hole isn't a clean bill of health. And when you have one unit where you could - I would argue - double it's points cost and still have it be a compelling choice, that's an issue that should be adressed. There's also the Monstrucker, but that's more a problem with "panO has bad specalists" being a limitation that remains when most armies have had their restrictions removed. It's also more of a desgin problem than a balance issue, because it's not like vPanO is tearing up the streets or something. So to say my piece here - on top of what others have said, it also lacks utility. For exactly 10 points less, you get the Squalo with a Damage 15 Grenade Launcher. Sure, you might not use it every game, but just having it forces some minor positioning concessions from the enemy, and occasionally it's very useful. Then you have the Squalo NCO option, which is a lot better than being forced to take the LT Jotum if you want the extra order. Also hacking ECM. For 1 point more, you can take an Uhlan, which packs vis mods and cammo, which is a huge deal for surviving agressive hacking. And the Uhlan is probably overpriced because of its werid guns. The Jotum isn't as bad as the Seraph, because it can still do the job that you expect a full-price TAG to be capable of, so I wouldn't call it trash. But it's hard to see a good reason to take it except that SWF doesn't have many TAG options. When TAGs dominate listbuilding as much as they do, arguably that means you change your Sectorial pick if TAGs don't work well in one place, or don't bring one. And the Jotum being bad isn't strictly-speaking a problem, since PanO has a lot of TAGs and some will be better than others. I think the larger issue is that the Jotum isn't so much overshadowed in its niche as it is bad at its niche compared to everything comparable. It has 2 armor over most comparable TAGs, meaning 1 armor vs. AP, and the same 3 wounds as every other TAG. I think it needs some more defensive tools other than having one uncommonly large stat. A firewall tinbot and some tasteful immunities would be a good start. If it's dependant on the big numbers, they need to be bigger - 4 wounds, maybe. Yes. I think a recurrant issue is that basic non-budget HI just consistently has an issue being worth what it costs. This extends to the KoJ, the Hospitallars, and similar units in most armies. At risk of going off topic, I'm not sure that a second wound is worth what the game charges for it. It's obviously nice to have, but things still die very quickly. The second wound is basically a saving throw - you take a hit, and maybe they rolled more than one hit, or had DA/Explosive ammo, or had Continuous Damage, or had Monofilliment, or sometbing else and you lose the right there, maybe you don't. Ultimately, I think there's a reason why good HI has often followed the model of Tuetons - Armor 3, Frenzy or Impetuous but linkable, cheap weapons like SMGs and templates, and other tricks to keep the cost down. Alternatively, it's loaded up with utilities, vis mods, etc. DeFerson exists, and brings a real gun for around the same price, and is better at FTFing other hackers thanks to Trinity. Otherwise, it would basically have the role of being an adequate hacker stapled to an HI body.
I know, it was a rhetorical question. Anything the KoJ can do, can be done exactly the same or better by cheaper units. Unless you specifically want to have a BS14, ML carrying HI in your army, in which case you don't have any other option. Anyway, give a ML to a KoS profile and boom, say goodbye to the overcosted KoJ. How would I fix the KoJ? First lower its point cost, it's too expensive for what it does. Then, with ARM 5 and BTS 9 it has good stats to tank attacks and hacks. It could be used as a "breacher" unit with the adequate loadoout. Maybe with FD and some DTW. But even with this modifications, raw stats alone can't do much without an adequate set of skills. And even with these changes it would still be using a good chunk of points in a points hungry faction as MO.
I know that MO is extremely popular, but again in am more interested in his role and place in SWF. Any thoughts and consideration given to him should also recognice that he exists in both sectorials.
He's got the same problem of being too expensive for what he does, and competing with Hospitallars who are both not especially good and basically the same unit for cheaper when they have overlapping weapon options. I guess if you wanted to have an aggressive HI hacker who could jump in with a Bulleteer or something like that, but for the same points cost you could take a Pathfinder (w/ repeater) and two Fusilier Hackers who can stand in the back, contribute to core linkteam bonuses, and certainly be a better defensive/reactive hacker; they'll be about as good at hacking most things that can only Reset in response. You also have the Nisse and Nokken hackers, who on top of being 10+ cheaper have mimetism and/or MSV, making them better gunfighters except for not having the extra wound.
Hello People, yes, I´m still around and playing sometimes with Panoceanian (Winterforce to be more accurate). For the last 3 tournaments I played with same 2 lists, no matter the missions. List A keko2 ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 10 BØYG Missile Launcher / Heavy Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (1.5 | 47) KNIGHT HOSPITALLER (Doctor) MULTI Rifle ( | MediKit) / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 35) KNIGHT OF JUSTICE (Forward Deployment [+10cm]) Spitfire, D-Charges / Heavy Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (1.5 | 50) SHONA CARANO Submachine Gun, Nanopulser(+1B), Flash Pulse / Pistol, EXP CC Weapon. (0 | 27) MACHINIST WinterFor (Mimetism [-3], Terrain [Total]) Combi Rifle, D-Charges ( | GizmoKit) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 18) NISSE Heavy Machine Gun / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 34) KARHU Feuerbach(+1B), AP Mines / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 35) AGNES Submachine Gun, Nanopulser / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 14) UMA SØRENSEN FTO (Lieutenant) Breaker Combi Rifle(+1 Dam) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 27) FUSILIER (Paramedic) Combi Rifle ( | MediKit) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 12) 6 SWC | 299 Points Open in Infinity Army List B keko1 ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 10 ORC Heavy Machine Gun / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 37) ORC WinterFor (Terrain [Mountain], Climbing Plus]) MULTI Rifle ( | TinBot: Firewall [-3]) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 34) VARG (Forward Observer) Heavy Rocket Launcher, Light Shotgun, Flash Pulse / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 25) VARG (Triangulated Fire, Sensor) Combi Rifle, Heavy Flamethrower, WildParrot / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 28) VARG (Minelayer) K1 Marksman Rifle, Shock Mines / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 30) UMA SØRENSEN FTO (Lieutenant) Breaker Combi Rifle(+1 Dam) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 27) NISSE Heavy Machine Gun / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 34) MACHINIST WinterFor (Mimetism [-3], Terrain [Total]) Combi Rifle, D-Charges ( | GizmoKit) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 18) KARHU (Paramedic) MULTI Rifle, Blitzen, AP Mines ( | MediKit) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 28) KARHU Feuerbach(+1B), AP Mines / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 35) GROUP 2 1 WARCOR (360º Visor) Flash Pulse ( ) / Stun Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 3) 6 SWC | 299 Points Open in Infinity Army Yes, I´m playing IL or almost (yes, I know I have a Warcor on list B, but I had 4 points to use). I have to say I did the list with the Idea of I want to play... boyg, justice, vargar, Uma... and that what I got. For list A, the one with Boyg and Justice, the usual configuration is: Boyg+Hospi+Justice --> haris A Nisse+Shona+Machinist --> haris B Uma+Agnes+Fusilier+Karhu --> 4 members core. But while the idea and the usual config, you can have many others settings, so until you place your last miniature it is easy to keep a few options to surprise your rival. For List B is pretty much the same but a little more limited. For List B the usual is: ORCS+Vargars --> 5 Members fireteam. Nisse + Uma + Machinist --> haris Karhu F. + Karhu paramedic --> duo. Boyg ML is being a thing. Most games was my best attack piece. Justice spitfire can get into the game when the ML range is not so good, Hosp. Doctor can push buttons and heal his fellows HI, plus, if you have hackers or repeater, if your opponent don´t have 6th sense you have stealth with both. The Nisse haris is a killing machine and thanks to Shona you have something to do when things goes closer. Machinist can push buttons. The 4 core can protect your deployment zone and for the last turn can pick someone from others fireteam and reconfigure with a little luck. Vargars+ORCs are being really fun to play since you can expose it and play to trades when the enemy has MVS, which usually does. Karhu duo can do a lot of push buttons plus to kill a few things. I´m having fun, even I´m winning games. For 12 matches I can say I only lost one (yes, I got a few ties too). So, please, give it a chance to winterforce.
Speaking of WinterForce this list was played quite well for me. Static Winter's Web (second pass) [Test] ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 10 FUSILIER (Lieutenant) Combi Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 10) FUSILIER (Hacker, Hacking Device) Combi Rifle ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 15) AGNES (RemDriver [+1 BS, +5 CC]) Submachine Gun, Nanopulser / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 21) KARHU Feuerbach(+1B), AP Mines / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 35) KARHU (Paramedic) MULTI Rifle, Blitzen, AP Mines ( | MediKit) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 28) MACHINIST WinterFor (Mimetism [-3], Terrain [Total]) Combi Rifle, D-Charges ( | GizmoKit) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 18) BULLETEER Spitfire / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (1 | 26) MULEBOT (Hacker, EVO Hacking Device) ( ) / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0.5 | 15) FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 7) NØKK (Hacker, Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Light Shotgun ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 28) GROUP 2 5 VARG (Minelayer) K1 Marksman Rifle, Shock Mines / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 30) VARG (Triangulated Fire, Sensor) Combi Rifle, Heavy Flamethrower, WildParrot / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 28) VARG (Forward Observer) Heavy Rocket Launcher, Light Shotgun, Flash Pulse / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 25) FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 7) FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 7) 5 SWC | 300 Points Open in Infinity Army And this is a list I really want to try out soon. Mixed (Vargar rush) [Test] ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 10 FUSILIER (Lieutenant) Combi Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 10) FUSILIER (Paramedic) Combi Rifle ( | MediKit) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 12) FUSILIER (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle, Flash Pulse ( | Deployable Repeater) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 12) FUSILIER (Hacker, Hacking Device) Combi Rifle ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 15) KARHU Feuerbach(+1B), AP Mines / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 35) SHONA CARANO Submachine Gun, Nanopulser(+1B), Flash Pulse / Pistol, EXP CC Weapon. (0 | 27) VARG (Triangulated Fire, Sensor) Combi Rifle, Heavy Flamethrower, WildParrot / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 28) VARG Spitfire / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 29) BULLETEER Spitfire / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (1 | 26) MULEBOT (Deactivator, Repeater) ( ) / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 8) GROUP 2 5 VARG (Minelayer) K1 Marksman Rifle, Shock Mines / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 30) VARG (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle, Heavy Flamethrower, Flash Pulse, Shock Mines / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 27) VARG (Forward Observer) Heavy Rocket Launcher, Light Shotgun, Flash Pulse / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 25) FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 7) FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 7) 6 SWC | 298 Points Open in Infinity Army
The KoJ ML would be following the progression arc from Fusilier ML > ORC FB > KoJ ML while providing the Fusilier core Ranged ARO capability and close assault defence against things like Fiday's that would usually prey on Fusilier Cores. You could even keep it relatively cheap by having it a 3 man and leveraging the B2 and still have a BS14 ML. A full Fusilier core loadout like this is only 93pts ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 5 KNIGHT OF JUSTICE Missile Launcher / Heavy Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (1.5 | 46) FUSILIER (Lieutenant) Combi Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 10) FUSILIER (Paramedic) Combi Rifle ( | MediKit) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 12) FUSILIER (Hacker, Hacking Device) Combi Rifle ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 15) FUSILIER Combi Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 10) 2 SWC | 93 Points Open in Infinity Army
How popular are KoJ in MO? personally I rarely if ever use one. Outside of my meme lists that have him and many BS Hospitalers forward deploy.
Essentially unused, in my experience. The Teuton missile launcher is a better HI ML dude for a mixed link - one point of BS isn't worth paying literally double the cost. But that whole concept took a downturn with the changes to mixed link teams. And it doesn't deal with smoke at all. De Ferson beats up the KoJ hacker and steals her lunch money. He gets a real gun to go with the HI body you spend all your points on, and access to Trinity makes him much more threatening to enemy hackers. The basic Spitfire profile suffers because the Teuton Spitfire NCO is a big part of making the army function at all. The FD spitfire is... unique? MO has midfield issues, but when I could take two Trinitarians and their cameraman for your price I'm sort of expecting more than 4 inches. I genuinely have no idea why you would ever take the Lieutenant profile when the KC exists (with the Teuton LT as a cheaper Lieutenant if you are really strapped) and the faction has a far cheaper NCO who does the exact same thing, and a better HI NCO for around the same price. In an army that chronically struggles to fit everything it needs into a list, something as overcosted as the KoJ really has no place in the army. For the cost premium over the already dubiously expensive Hospitallars, the KoJ feels like it's missing some kind of headliner skill as standard on the profile. I'm not going to day giving them BS Attack (+1 Burst) would be balanced, but it's what you expect to see when you look at their price point. BTS 9 is nice, but doesn't cut it when the damage profiles of hacking profiles are so absurd. I'm not going to go so far as to actually claim outright that any MO list which includes a KoJ would be better by replacing (partially because the FD guy has no direct substitute), but I'm thinking it.
I have to say, KoJ, for me, has more sense in Winterforce than in MO. @Valiant Storm you forget too the Santiagos, they aren´t so good as KoJ, but they provide some others things or tools. So, coming back to KoJ topic... In winter it has a place, but because it provide a few things that not hospitallers, nor boyg neither ORCS provide, however is really expensive. I could say that KoJ provokes in winter for boyg same effect that Teutons do for KoJ in OM. Pano has always the issue about to try put what´s you need on the list. Let´s see if someday Pano got some true love. What I said in my latest post where I shared my Winterlists: If I play Pano now it would be to play that particular profile, I will choose the profile, KoJ for example, then I will build the list around that trooper. Could it be not the best approach, but is the one is working for me at least.
Not him, but - I think it comes down to having less direct competition in Heavy Infantry. SWF has Orcs and Hospitalers, but those overlap more with each other, and their SWC options are more in the HMG rangebang, whereas the KoJ mostly has Spitfires. That said, I'm curious as to what @Urobros thinks on the subject, because while I agree that you have to build around centerpiece units in PanO more than elsewhere given the lack of cheap plug-and-play warbands and so forth, I disagree that the KoJ is better in SWF. Or that he's worth building around, unless you really like the unit. Fundamentally, it's a lot of points for something that doesn't bring unique capabilities to the table. KoJ doesn't win gunfights any better than an Orc or a Hospitallars - +1 armor isn't a worth 14+ points, and the 9 BTS is nice but not good enough to facetank hacking programs. And it does very little beyond winning gunfights, except in the hacker profile. So what's the point of it?
Well, @psychoticstorm , @Valiant Storm nailed it. KoJ isn´t a bad profile, but I can deny is a little expensive. Exactly, my point is that looking at MO I see too many other profiles which can do pretty much same work as KoJ but cheaper. For spitfires you already have other profiles cheapest and not only, because "teuton" brings too higher order efficacy, even Lt option could be the Santiago spitfire a better choice only because spare us SWC. Even, if we want a "high mobility" unit, we could choose the Montesa, even more, the "duo", redfury + paramedic are only 14 points more than a single KoJ spitfire. Yes, hacker is a good option, but having DeFersen and Santiago KHD... is really the better choice in OM? Even if we go for the profile with Forward Deployment and D-Charges we already have Trinitaries... So what´s is the point? But in Winterforce his "enemy" is only the "boyg", Orcs have better range (HMG one) but they are more weak against some things that KoJ isn´t. Hospitallers of course have some virtues that KoJ has, but they aren´t wildcards, which while playing Winterforce is a great handicap, at least from my point of view, since Winterforce is to play as many fireteams as you can and with many flavours as possible. All this are my arguments to say that KoJ suits better for Winterforce than for OM. But as I said, I think KoJ isn´t a bad profile, so you can play in both, Winter and OM if you wants, plus the miniature is really nice, so why not to include it only for "coolness" reasons. I have to say too that this is only my opinion based on my personal experience and I want to know if you agree or not, and why :) It is always interesting to know others point of view. It is pretty amazing how many times players disagree about how good or how to use some profiles.
What you’re encountering with De Fersen and the Knight of Justice is a Knight’s point cost without the Frenzy/Impetuous discount. Every other Knight option in MO has this discount. It’s entirely possible that without this discount you’d go holy crap that Teuton is like 30pts (abitrary numbers cause I don’t know how much the Frenzy/Impetuous discount applies) for the base profile…
