I would include the Kunai Ninjas also. The Ninja profile was never realy overwhelming. The BS is low, because the mimetism is high - at least thats what I think, why they keept it. At least the Knuai should be BS12 (or even better: The should have marksmanship) to show what the fluff said: Ninjas, that prefer shooting. Instead they took away 1 CC from them :-(. Which makes the sniper variant even more bad than the original. But I would say give them a chance, I had game, where exactly this Kunai Sniper managed it to get in a very threating postition - thanks to C+ ;-) I totaly agree. A +3 also would be handy, but the -3 makes it even more Ninja! Another solution without touching their PH would be: Dodge (PH=14). If that would help to keep their pts-cost. I also wonder, why Ninjas have no smoke (nobody at CB watched the old 90. movies?). I think it´s fine like it is. Yep! Thats something that would capture the spirit and make them more threating. They NEED that!
Definitely used to be a thing. Loup Garou had a Flash Grenade Launcher. As far as Ninja go, I think all they need to be up-to-date is Climbing Plus, and for Martial Arts to go down in price across the formula to match the annoyingly cheap bespoke stat boosts on many of the newer units. C+ on Camo units can be brutal, so giving them powerful shooting or evasion to match could be overkill. I've used Shinobu once since she got it, and with some decent positioning even the Combi Rifle put in serious work.
And you'd be right. There was such a thing, and these were Grenades with then-equivalent of Stun Ammo. However, they'd be a very situational weapon, as they were in N3. The problem lies in Infinity mechanic: Grenades have B1 (unless thrown out of a Fireteam, or having bonus burst due to other rules), and are subject to all BS modifiers Grenades are thrown over short ranges These two reasons mean usually just shooting is a better option. The recent cases where I've seen Grenades deployed on-table was in ARO, when the Template effect allowed to put other targets than the FtF one in danger. In Active Turn, that's basically "high risk, not much of a reward". As for Speculative Fire, that's going at -6, unless you have had a chance to get the victim Targeted first (preferably in ARO). I have used Speculative Fire last game - out of desperation. My Druze GL was firing his EM grenades at 6-or-less, and let's keep in mind that's still FtF: dodge'able at -3. And it is a Long Skill. So, tell me please in which situation you'd choose to spend an Entire Order Skill that, if successful in an FtF would make the target take a DAM13 BTS save,and get Stunned state if they fail? I could see the appeal if I had an enemy Fireteam grouped out of sight (probably inside of a building) so that I could take them all with a circular Template, and I'd want to soften them up before I walk on them with a gun. Provided I am able to land a hit, it isn't dodged by all of the models, and isn't resisted by those who didn't dodge. Pretty random chance there. And that's assuming I still have Orders to spare once I'm in that situation. The only type of grenade I see routinely deployed in Infinity is Smoke - both thrown and from Grenade Launchers. Though majority of it is the the Targetless mode, setting up smoke screens. When we are talking Stun weapons - how often do you see Flashpulse being used offensively? As in, Active Turn? In ARO, that's a pretty common sight: it uses WIP as a base, so usually higher than BS, and has a decent range. Burst is 1 anyway. If you manage to win the FtF, you're already ahead of your opponent. Potentially putting the attacker into Stunned state is just icing on the cake. But I don't think I've seen anyone Flashpulsing offensively.
Ninja or not, I'd like to see a come back of Flash Grenades. This is even something we use now but mostly in law enforcement or capture missions in urban/buildings. I'd love some of my O-12 to have them for theme alone. I also thnk they should be treated like smoke and be target-less. They are usually thrown into rooms without seeing the objective.
In CQB / MOUT you routinely throw grenades into rooms without seeing the target. Bah, often without knowing whether the target is there at all - just in case. But that's still covered under Infinity Speculative Fire rules. And Speculative Fire is pretty limiting nowadays. Now, the other way around - N2, when for a time we were flingin' poo at each other with linked LGLs - wasn't good either. Switching Stun Grenades to Targetless isn't going to solve much. Because you'll still have to have LoS to the intended impact point.
I'm not going to - not enough time to play it, as I play 7 armies already. Therefore please just tell ust wy shuld we - Now, I'm not saying it cannot be - I'm saying I don't see why it should be so.
I might be wrong, but I think @fari is talking about in Arianda grenades are very useful as: They allow you to utilize the wonderful PH value Allows some fun Spec Fire craziness to deal with tough models you cannot beat in a gunfight. The Khawarij Doctor in a Ramah Haris can add some additional tools that your opponent will sometimes not realize. Lobbing grenades into a objective room in relative safety can be really fun.
Nope! There is a reason. This would made it way to easy (Unopposed 13 if you have PH 10) to catch models, that guarding a corner in blast that they can not see and their only chance to ARO would be D-3.
I don't doubt it's fun, but the numbers suggest it is not very cost-effective... and that's my problem with it. Let's take the Khawarij you've mentioned. At PH 13, he's very good in that department. So, assuming he's just in the right range (up to 8"), you are SpecFiring grenades at 10's (PH 13, +3 range, -6 SpecFire), on Long Skill, B1, with the target allowed a -3 Dodge. Now, if the very same Khawarij peeks around the corner, he can either blast away with his shotgun (at +6, since we've already estabilished we're in 8" range), or lay templates, both at B2 - and you get to choose based on your opponent's reaction. Damage is the same, D13 as with the grenade (unless the Khawarij had a BSG). Of course, Khawarij is not the best example - I see many Ariadna models have better PH than BS, and if you have just a plain Rifle (+0 up to 8"), or a Chainrifle, grenades might actually prove to be a viable alternative to a Pistol when AROing up close.
Is it really that easy? It's still B1 vs B1 and if you want a range bonus you have to be within 8". That's a big order investment for a decent chance of nothing happening. Even a PH 13 attacker vs. Ph11 dodge at - 3 has less than 50% chance of dealing a wound. Right now, direct template corner guards seem to be everywhere, but the only practical counter is GML. If grenades became a better alternative, it would diversify the potential options. I'm on the fence as to whether speculative attack restrictions on burst should still apply to targetless grenades (full order, max B of 1, but no penalty to attack as long as you have line of sight to the impact point)
Umm, no. You'd still need to see the point of impact, as it is the case with Smoke Grenades. Do you mean "just toss them near a cover, and catch in the blast everyone hiding behind it" perhaps? I.e. targets you don't have LoS to? That'd probably be more "realistic" take on grenades, but I have a feeling we'd have to add Disposable trait ot the grenades to keep any kind of balance. I'm not a fan of adding another stack of counters to my models, really - and I'd need to use them if I were to keep track of gow many grenades have already been tossed.
Grenades are good as they are. They allow new approaches with limited risk to the attacking unit without being oppressive. Unlike GML and N3 grenade launchers, the target unit is not placed in a severe disadvantage. A quick check of army shows that Vanilla Ariadna has 16 units that have access to normal grenades, which is by far the most. (PanO: 5, Yujing: 3, Haqqislam: 5, Nomads: 3, Combined: 4, Aleph: 3, Tohaa: 1, and O-12: 2.). That and the high PH makes it more likely to be used by Ariadna. I also love the fastball imagery when Dog Warriors or a Bearpode throw a grenade on 19s.
Yeah, targetless as in the same targetless tag that is already applied to smoke grenades. So LoS still required to the impact point. If an enemy is hiding behind a corner, the "practical" course of action is to throw a grenade at their feet and force them to dive (dodge) away from it. I don't think I've ever used a grenade or grenade launcher in the active turn as a regular (non speculative) BS attack. There is almost always a better weapon option, unless you are trying a suicide run with a warband against a poorly positioned fireteam, and even then, you might be better of hitting them with a rocket launcher thanks to the burst.
I have one more gripe, and I'm curious how would you think it should be addressed. Let's assume we have Targetless grenades. So we can throw them at any point on the table we see (well, or don't see, if we want to cope with Speculative Fire penalties). How would you prevent them being thrown "totally not targetting" Camouflage Markers? As in, I throw a grenade at a point I see, and a Camo Marker - which I see or not - is affected by the template? Which automatically forces it out of Marker State by Dodge, or - assuming you hit - by ARM roll. Right now, this effect can happen only if there's any enemy model next to that camo marker - with model being a legal target of the template (terminal or direct) attack, and the marker getting affected as, let's say, collateral damage. But with Targetless Grenades, it would be the default way of dealing with Mines, or Camo troopers, I guess.
I think the fix with the least amount of changes is to require damage-dealing (not non-lethal) targetless attacks to still require a main target declaration. This would protect camo markers from dynamite fishing, unless they were deployed close enough to a non-camo marker that the template can hit both. If you instead move the targetless feature into the speculative attack skill (which probably permits the fewest exploits), then you just make it a requirement of the modifier: - Speculative attack against a camo marker or a location where you cannot see the blast focus: -6 Mod - Otherwise, no penalty mod. - As currently, no mods for mimetism, cover, etc. are applied
Targetless, by definition, does not require declaring a target. Also, if non-lethal is except from that, the Stun Grenades we started the with are still non-lethal. So dynamite fishing camo markers with them would still be a thing. I'm not sure how to read the second part of your post, though. You are of the opinion we should allow Speculative Fire against camo markers...? Now that looks like open season invitation for dynamite fishing in my eyes... Why should I bother with trying to get LoS on the Camo Marker to Discover it (or to run an Intuitive Attack with a Direct Template weapon), when I can dynamite fish it? Either the Camo Marker tries to Dodge (and reveals itself), or I have a decent chance of hitting it with a DAM 13 and decamoing it by the way of ARM roll... Double so if it is a Mine of one kind or another.
