I still don't see where all the fuss is coming from, probably because I'm not very aware of all the messages. That message you mention can be separated into two different things. One of them is whether he likes the Reinforcements rule or not, I'm going to directly ignore that part, what each person likes is like asses, everyone has their own and not everyone has to like it. The second part is just to tell this person that is cheating by using fewer points than allowed to make the army (I don't think I've heard this argument before, ever). But the rules allow it when they say: The total sum of the Cost of the Troopers that make up an Army List must always be equal to or lower than the number of Army Points agreed upon for the game. (bold emphasis added by me)
The ARMY is littly buggy with the groups, but you get the idea... GLM is dööd? ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 10 NEXUS (Lieutenant, Specialist Operative) Combi Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 16) UNIDRON Plasma Carbine / Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 14) UNIDRON Plasma Carbine / Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 14) UNIDRON (Commlink [+1], Specialist Operative) Plasma Carbine / Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0.5 | 24) R-DRONE Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 7) ÍMETRON . (0 | 6) NOCTIFER (Hacker, Hacking Device) Combi Rifle ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 29) IKADRON (Baggage, Repeater) Light Flamethrower(+1B), Flash Pulse / Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 9) Bit (Hacker], Killer Hacking Device [UPGRADE: Oblivion]) Submachine Gun, Pitcher ( | Deployable Repeater]) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 21) KISS! Adhesive Launcher, Pitcher(+1B) ( | Deployable Repeater) / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 6) GREIF-OP (Surprise Attack [-3], Impersonation [IMP-2]) Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Breaker Pistol(+1B), CC Weapon. (0.5 | 21) GROUP 2 4 IKADRON (Baggage, Repeater) Light Flamethrower(+1B), Flash Pulse / Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 9) MED-TECH OBSIDON MEDCHANOID Combi Rifle, D-Charges ( | GizmoKit, MediKit) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 22) SLAVE DRONE PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 3) SLAVE DRONE PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 3) T-DRONE Missile Launcher / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (1.5 | 16) NOCTIFER Missile Launcher / Assault Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 32) GROUP 3 (48p, 1,5swc) 2 VECTOR REINF. Spitfire / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 26) M-DRONE REINF (Nanoscreen) Combi Rifle, Flash Pulse ( ) / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 22) 6.5 SWC | 294 Points Open in Infinity Army Nourkias Must die ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 10 UNIDRON (Commlink [+1], Specialist Operative) Plasma Carbine / Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0.5 | 24) UNIDRON K1 Combi Rifle ( | TinBot: Firewall [-3]) / Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0.5 | 17) UNIDRON Plasma Carbine / Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 14) ÍMETRON . (0 | 6) ÍMETRON . (0 | 6) IKADRON (Baggage, Repeater) Light Flamethrower(+1B), Flash Pulse / Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 9) IKADRON (Baggage, Repeater) Light Flamethrower(+1B), Flash Pulse / Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 9) NOURKIAS (Lieutenant, Hacker, Killer Hacking Device [UPGRADE: Total Control (+1 Damage)]) Breaker Combi Rifle, Flash Pulse ( ) / Pistol, Vorpal CC Weapon, E/M CC Weapon. (0 | 45) E-DRONE Combi Rifle / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0.5 | 18) GREIF-OP (Surprise Attack [-3], Impersonation [IMP-2]) Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Breaker Pistol(+1B), CC Weapon. (0.5 | 21) GROUP 2 3 Bit (Hacker], Killer Hacking Device [UPGRADE: Oblivion]) Submachine Gun, Pitcher ( | Deployable Repeater]) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 21) KISS! Adhesive Launcher, Pitcher(+1B) ( | Deployable Repeater) / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 6) NOCTIFER Missile Launcher / Assault Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 32) Q-DRONE Heavy Machine Gun / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (1 | 25) GROUP 3 (57p, 2swc) 3 REINF T-DRONE Missile Launcher / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (1.5 | 16) BASE OPERATORS REINF (Engineer) Boarding Shotgun, D-Charges ( | GizmoKit) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 19) SLAVE DRONE REINF PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 3) EXO REINF (Specialist Operative, X Visor) Plasma Carbine ( ) / Assault Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (0 | 19) 6.5 SWC | 304 Points Open in Infinity Army EDIT- Making it more readable and reinforcement points visible
I still strongly assert that intentionally playing below points in order to trigger reinforcements and retreat early is a huge sportsmanship violation and should not be allowed in events.
I think it is, though I a not sure how this can or should be coded in the rules? I do not think I have even encountered this as an issue in any wargame other than GW's "gang games"...
I don't think it should. I don't have nearly enough experience with Reinforcements, but I have a feeling that no matter how you wiggle it, it is difficult to make skipping of the 1/7th of your total points allowance an advantage. Well okay, you have the Reinforcements come down earlier. But these Reinforcements groups are 2-3 Orders strong. Whatever they are meant to do, they don't have much Orders to do it. Halfway up the table or not, 3 Orders is 3 Orders. And missing points are missing points. As the lists come from a person who was so very vocal about the GML play being nerfed by the Reinforcements format in this topic, and accusing everyone who didn't share their enthusiasm about the format of being GML-optimised CA players, I find the presented lists, ahem, interesting: both are CA lists, both are GML lists. ot sure how other people would call that. To me, it seems to be some form of intellectual dishonesty.
I would think that if this is the intention, then the rules (and the army app) should enforce it, by specifying that a list should contain, for example, "251-300" points instead of "up to 300 points".
And it seems to me a perfectly valid opinion. But only opinion is not enough to force others not to use perfectly valid rules. The day the rule changes, if it does, it will not be allowed, but right now nothing prevents it from doing so.
The “GLM is dööd” list can trigger reinforcements (48p) after Greif-OP and Noctifer ML (32+21= 53p) kick the bucket. Dropping repeater to the midfield without any ARO possibility is very nice. Triangulated forward observer (2x10 vs anything) from any position (nanoscreen) is also very nice. Vector Spitfire an amazing gunfighter that can pretty much win any firefight against all but the most oppressive fireteams. “Nourkias Must Die” is all about avoiding Loss of Lieutenant and maximising the value of Nourkias. It can trigger reinforcements (57p) after enemy makes a successful hacking alpha strike that somehow takes out both (firewall buffed) Nourkias +B&K/Greif-OP. The reinforcements also can be triggered if enemy takes out Noctifer ML and Q-drone (32+24 =56) because 3 unspent points on the main force. T-drone becomes another annoying long range ARO piece and base operator fixes the Q-drone. E-drone manages enhanced reactions and assisted fire to whatever REM that needs it the most. Opponents are constantly pressured to engage my powerful ARO pieces and if/when finally manage to kill them more troopers spawn to most annoying positions and my order count remains at optimum levels. In my opinion, this is the correct competive way to play reinforcements.
Technically, you do not need to sacrifice from the reinforcements group, you can sacrifice from your main group and achieve the same results. I am sure there are many mixes between sacrificing 50 points form main group and sacrificing 50 points from reinforcements that can result in a first round drop strategy either as first or second turn player to take advantage of reinforcements deployment.
That’s part of the difficulty. Players playing the “well, the rules don’t say I can’t” will do exactly that.
If CB staff are reading this (and I'm sure that they are), they should take a moment and think how creatively I have used their reinforcement mechanic, scrap any "improvement" ideas and just inform that it just happens that my ideas were ofc exactly what they were aiming at when they did the mechanic and act surprised how long it took us to figure it out its true function. Because I think it's pretty ingenious that you can freely field a TAG and HI for reinforcements or just couple guys with combi rifles. If less than 100p casulties are suffered during first two rounds, the clearly superior TAG and HI finally end their donut break and cram into that drop pod during round 3. The guys with combi rifles can arrive earlier, but obviously this can bite you back if opponent doesn't kill your dudes during rounds 1 and 2 or if he kills over 100p which would obviously end even the most important of donut breaks. Player agency in its finest. All reinforcement profiles become useful.
The problem I perceive is not the one you mention, in this case it seems to me that it is more the following: Player A: the rules say I can. Player B: In my opinion, you shouldn't be able to. Player B's opinion may be correct (I don't know, that's why I don't argue for or against it), but the rules say that Player A is right.
It is essentially a debate about rules structuring, there are two opinions, "rules do not say I cannot therefore I can" and "rules do not say I can therefore I cannot". At the moment there is no rule that governs how much of the points allocated in an army list is a player is supposed to use, there is a rule that governs how much SWC points the players have available depending on how many points they chose the game to be played. There is an expectation that the players will use the best of their abilities to fill the points cost to the maximum amount possible, but no rule concerning it.
hopefully the rules will be changed so that you will need to count the points you have lost, and not the points you have remaining. it will be mechanically the same for people who bring the maximum amount of points but will disincentivize bringing less points as a strategy (as it should thematically, as calling the reinforcements is a response to getting casualties, not because you brought less guys...)
CB themselves made it difficult to get a full 100pts. I made a lot of groups were I had like 14pts left over and had nothing that could go in.
Your overpriced TAG and HI reinforcements are getting there but clearly there more important tasks to do before it can happen. Those donuts don't eat themselves, you know. On the other hand, those two troopers with combi rifles and attitude problem have much more open schedule for the day. We can invent a fluffy reasoning for everything.
Check if you have a rulebook that has missing pages or missing text, because I found this quote from the rulebook without much effort. How many points can a player use? Less than agreed? Yeah Exactly the agreed points? Yeah More than agreed? No It doesn't seem like such a complicated rule for this flood of messages on the forum.
The trigger should not be counted in VP of the whole army, it should be just a point value of lost troops. Preventing gambling with listbuilding.
I still haven’t heard any good arguments why this “gambling” is bad for the game or causes negative gaming experience. I strongly encourage everyone to test it out before drawing any conclusions. You can always take the conservative option by taking the full (or almost full) 100pts and it’s definitely a good idea if enemy is good at attacking. For example the Nourkias list frequently kills over 100p of troops during 2nd turn.
