VII Interplanetario 2023 results discussion

For the table, I can't recall who exactly (sorry <3) provided to the community a pic of every single tables from the event: https://imgur.com/gallery/yLl990S

 

It's really weird you're locking threads and then reopening them with yourself as the OP. I don't understand what the point is if the conversation is going to spill over here.

6/8 of the top 8 in Kraken were Steel Phalanx. That's worth discussing, and I think indicates imbalance; the fact that you're not mentioning that in the OP tells me you're not being honest with your analysis.

As others have said, basically, the Eclipse Grenade ARO means that armies that rely on interactive solutions (i.e. BS Attack) can't really deal with ASS, so the solution is to rely on noninteractive options like GML. This is bad for the game for a number of reasons - noninteractive gameplay is generally unsatisfying for most people. It also means that factions that don't have access to good noninteractive play are just *worse*. If I wanted to play Agricola I'd play Agricola; Infinity should trend towards interaction.

So I think this perception is correct. Unfortunately, @psychoticstorm , we've got you and other people who are pushing the idea that our perceptions don't matter, the game can never be described as unbalanced because we lack the moral right to do so, and that we need to shut up. I am wondering what is going on here, exactly; when is the right time to bring forth issues with balance? It seems like you think there never is one. Moreover, you only enforce civility on one side of the conversation - showing a clear bias on your part.

 

It feels really weird that people seem to be blaming linked Eclipse grenades. Tohaa has had them for as long as I can remember (start of N3) and having that "lack of interaction" has been always core part of their gameplan and made it strong.

Steel has also had linked Eclipse for as long as i remember. What was the big change that moved it from "strong" to "broken?"

It just feels weird that people are arguing something that has been a part of the game for so long and has not fundamentally changed (linked Eclipse) is now considered broken.

Question: How much more linkable Eclipse was added with the last Steel Update? Or it really just the case that it was added to a single strong model?

EDIT: Basically it feels like we are focusing on the wrong thing.

 

There's a few things that happened - in addition to the Eclipse, SP also got access to very strong HD ARO pieces, which means that players have to be much more cautious about attacking/aggressing against them. Also, many of their characters got Immunity (Shock), which drastically lowered the ability to one-shot them, giving people more chances to smoke.

 

To me, it would make more sense to focus on those parts (increased Immunity(Shock)) than aiming at weakening a fundamental tool. Just go back to having the failure state being more punishing.

 

Well, Shock is also much less prolific than it was in N3, and other counters (Minelayer) are not distributed evenly across all factions.

 

What is "Not Yet"? And why we have Emperors Children here? (last on is a joke)

@SP: They have linked eclipse since the beginning, once Teucer was a beast, now Atalanta is a strong ARO piece and Agema now have HD with the option of HRL (sadly they just released the sniper again ;-). Last added char with eclipse is Hyppolita. The cheapest eclipse source is 29 pts myrm officer lt profile. There are four chars with eclipse. Eclipse is very good, but no wonder-weapon.

The most reason - for what I read from the last thread - are the more or less open tables paired with a very tight time window of 45 min and missions, that favor SP coupled with players, that take their profit out of these circumstances.

 

Eclipse on a unit that is good in CC is amazing - because it prevents the main way of rousting out someone who is hiding in smoke. This is part of why the only good counter is GML.

 

Isn't Eclipse in general much better for a faction that want to get into CC than for one that have viral guns?

 

Possible to have the top lists ?

 

Makauls don't have Mimetism (-6) and 2W to go with that Eclipse Smoke, where's Steel Phalanx models do, making it that much harder to even hit them with a BS attack in the first place. This means that ther have a much higher chance of getting the Eclipse Smoke down in the first place.

 

Characters like Eudoros and Phoenix have basically no discernable weaknesses and are incredibly strong for their cost and you can take an entire army of them. Atalanta is another example.

I don't think anyone who looks at results where SP do extremely well and who also knows the game well is going to be that surprised.

 

For me it looks like one army this time sits above the others.
I remember different arguments, but it feels not good anyway and woukd not.

From one side we can see just a skill game, but from another may be it's better to paint two sets of SP in black and white and call it new chess. Others are not needed anymore. Or may be it is better to remember the chess?

It reminds me Mortal Kombat EVO tournament this year. Finals were almost in one character. Last three pairs were in a mirror game. And looking at this was boring and not plesant. I dont want to play game with this kind of balance, where one character is an obvious power choice. (I am skipping the difference between the games because here is an example how it looks from the side. (And Street Figter 6 tournament was awesome, but that is another kind story.))

So, there is a problem.
There was an argument, why person could not take just an army he likes. After all there are a new good toys... Well, everything is fine with it, but final showed that it was also a good power choice in a proper hands. And I think, they were choosen by strong players not only because "wow, new cool miniatures", but also because of power. All of them are strong, and in our "test group" those with this options were stronger.

"Perfect balance would kill the game"? We dont need perfect balance. But we need balance.
Not choice between "play SP or GML". (this last exame is grotesque a little.)

But now we have reinforcements. I wonder, what would it change...

 

Ecilpse for Tohaa is on a Makul, which has always been one of the most dangerous CC models in the game and is a "glue" unit for a lot of triads because it provides (to me) a fundamental toolbox. IMO, that single unit can provide Tohaa so much strength and is a core aspect of its gameplan.

Steel having Eclipse has always been a part of identity for as long as I remember. It is a very strong tool (like regular smoke) in infinity that allows lots of flexibility. And while in general Eclipse is very strong, I don't think it moves into broken territory.

What I think is the problem is Steel benefited greatly from the N4 move to lower model count forces as it plays into its strengths. It also got more tools and resilience with the last update and now very few things can fight its combination of raw power and toughness. Earlier versions could be dealt with numerical superiority and removing either the key pieces or order generators. Now that is much harder and one of the only (IMO) viable approaches to the Steel puzzle problem is GML with missiles. Or da Bears. I think the solution would just be some minor nerfs on some of the troublesome units. If Eurodos lost Eclipse and became HI might be a step in the right direction. I think it is solvable within the faction without gutting core capabilities.

Glad to see another fan of the FGC! I also look at infinity in terms of a fighting game when it comes to balance and that nearly any faction can win. Some factions just have additional or more effective tools. I think Infinity is mostly balanced, but currently Steel might be a Tekken 7 Launch Leroy. I am hopeful that CB can iron out the issue with some minor changes, like Tekken was able to.

 

The key here is the perception of the game situation. Although eclipse and GML has been part of the game, it was not until now that the perception of the situation is starting to skew the player’s experience too much.

It is similar to Magic the Gathering Caw-Blade deck Era. Caw-Blade started as Brian Kibler’s Caw-Go deck, but as time pass by and word got spread the deck was more and more played and tools were added to the basic archetype with the upcoming expansions until it become the single most efficient deck possible in standard as it got resources advantage in any single card played and trading of the board position with the opponent. And it was strong in both early game, mid game and end game. So players gravitated toward it. In the end the meta offered only two options to players:

* Play Caw Blade and try to enjoy mirror matches until end of time and the one who was more skilled/lucky in the interactions of the table would won.

* Play a deck that can beat Caw Blade by ignoring it’s key feature -> by playing non-interactive instead of interactive.


So what was the one deck that had a positive win ratio against Caw Blade? U/R Splinter Twin. A deck that it’s main key feature was that it has a non-interactive one turn kill combo and could play absolutely autistic until it found the key pieces of such combo.

So Caw Blade beat any deck in the game that tried to interact with the board and the opponent. U/R Splinter Twin beat Caw Blade because it doesn’t want to interact at all. And an aggressive enough deck such as Vampires could beat U/R Splinter Twin if they got the initiative and got lucky with the draws.

Does this situation remind you of something?

SP is akin to Caw Blade. It currently has enough tools to obtain a net positive resource spent every time that they or the enemy interact with the board: Mimetism -6 / -3, aplenty 2W key units, Eclipse Grenades, Smoke Grenades, Visors, Hidden Deployment ARO, Aplenty of AP, Good CC, Good BS, Order Efficiency.

GML is akin to U/R Splinter Twin. It can deny the interaction of the board and ignore all the previous mentioned tools by ‘almost’ impossible to react Spotlight+GML. For the sake of the argument yes, there are ways to react to this tactic, but they can be also played around by the opponent.

Armies with enemy deployment zone Alpha Strikes, such as Margot and Duroc, extreme Infiltration Units, or good Impersonators are akin to Vampires and can beat GML consistently if they have the initiative. But they won’t have such a good time against SP as their alpha strikes turn into 50/50 trades most of the times.

What to do then?

Back then Magic the Gathering solved the situation by banning the key cards of both the offending deck and its counter. So both Caw-Blade and Splinter Twin were banish from the meta.

What should Infinity do?