Well it is easier to just remove guided. No one would miss it, it is on just 1 bot per faction plus that one CA model with guided sniper if I remember correctly. Someone suggested a while back that pitchers should be limited to 16 inch range and no B bonus for fireteams, that seems reasonable. I had least fun game in my life ( I play since 2014 ) on this IP against linked Druze GL. So now I hate GL as much as guided. Anything that can hit you across the map without revealing/opening for ARO is just horrible for the game.
I like the concept of Guided quite a bit, but I agree the current interpretation is incredibly un-fun. My favorite solution is to add being targeted by a Guided attack being a cancellation event for Targeted, removing the Targeted State after resolving the Guided Attack. This keeps it as a viable tool, but you only get one attempt at attacking a Targeted model before having to reapply the state.
Guided is fine imho. It's order inefficient at the best of times, and even worse in reinforcements due to the more limited order pool you are working with. Mechanically, I don't think it needs any changes. I think a lot of people when they talk about guided are missing the forest for the trees. The issue is more that certain units can extend repeater nets in a way that is very difficult to stop, and/or provide way too much value for the points you pay. These are units like Hecklers, B&K (although they have been nerfed I guess) and arguably Hunzakuts. I think messing around with those units is the way to deal with unfun guided strats. Or maybe allow KHDs to deploy with cybermask active or something. On the other hand, I'd 100% be for the removal or serious rework of speculative attack. As it is right now, it requires zero set up, and has zero interaction. It's just you and your opponent rolling B1 spec attacks vs B1 dodges. Even if it's niche and rarely good, it's never ever interesting gameplay. SP's current state balance wise is interesting, and while the distribution of factions in the top 10 of one of the IP tournaments is def something to talk about, I think my issue with them primarily is that you kinda need guided to consistently answer them. Unless you have some very specific close range attackers (either MA+NBW CC specialists like the Nahab or UFK, or strong tanky berserkers like a Bear or McMurrough), it's p hard to answer SP. B2 smoke/eclipse smoke as an ARO means even against strong MSV shooters like a Mukhtar or Karhu, all it takes is one F2F to go decently for them to completely shut out ranged attacks for the rest of the turn. Guided is really the only consistent way to answer SP, and that's not something that every faction has easy access to. I understand SP needs to be strong defensively due to their small unit count, but I would like to see them adjusted such that factions without good guided access have options against them beyond just hoping they win shooting F2Fs vs B2 smoke/eclipse smoke.
Hello :) all of you, I would need to quote too many, so I will only said that is an interesting discussion. I agree a lot in many things with most of you, specially @Marduck . Being one of the players there and one who take the time to extract every armies going to the interplanetario to talk about, I have to said around my group pretty much all believed SSA or Guided Missiles will win this tournament. Our forecast was accurate. Many information can be extracted from this Tournament and result. From my personal experience, I was the Hassasin in Krakens fighting for TOP 10 until I lost the last match. I lost 2 games of 6, both against Phalanx. I could play against the SSA finalist in my 4 match. He was a really nice guy. He started, he asked me about 3 LoF, launched eclipse and reached a position where he could do the 3 cards with the magic haris. (eudoro, pandora, acmon). No need to roll face to face. The think about current fireteams is 4 pure members has +1 to BS, this is an upgrade to Phalanx because his 4 men pure FT now are better, in meantime others fireteams went worse. Letting aside tables and rivals, something we always have to keep in mind to do the best conclusions (I think @psychoticstorm pointed before in this direction), I was trying to explain to a colleague why SSA is so strong: It makes errors less serious than others factions, as an example, think about ML Noctifer, if usual phalanx fireteam fails to move with second half order, best shoot for Noctifer will be on 9s, if player still has cover, best shot will on 6, so the chances to survive a mistake are high. If the error happens on first half... Noctifer will face to face on 9s against 13s. Maybe we could say now bakunin can play same game but... not the same, because if you go close to Moiras they will be dead, yes, cenobites will be there, but you can hack those. So, isn´t exactly the same. Not even the chimera has same effectiveness launching smoke. Isn´t only eclipse, but how well you can launch it. About guided missiles only making face to face with reset instead of phis, will do the trick. If you survive, you will be save for a while. Phalanx was, probably in whole Interplanetario, the unique faction which could use only one list for 7 missions. Best regards!
I could reply "I don't think Eclipse Smoke is such an issue. It's not in our meta", but I will be a little less dismissive here (and btw, it's not "ARO guided", since Guided can only be used in Active Turn, but "apply Marked state without risk" using hackers): being able to mark enemy troopers in ARO becomes a problem when the amount of repeaters in the table reaches a critical mass, and this becomes easier and easier with each released hacker. While in the past they came with a combi rifle or BSG and a hacking device, with specific units carrying a Pitcher, nowadays almost all factions have access to 2-3 pitcher throwers without effort... and those are not even "just for pitchers": most are also hackers, or carry hacking weapons (jammer), making 2 hackers able to mark a lot of enemies that dare cross the enemy hacking area. As for the Eclipse, I find it funny how something they had since HSN2 (more than 10 years ago!) is now suddenly unbalanced, after nearly 3 years of N4. As I said before, up to N4 there was not much of a problem with Eclipse (it was seen even as a "self obstruction" for the greeks), but since MSV1 broke smoke-covered advance, you are complaining the only way a melee faction has to reach melee should be nerfed, and you do so without providing a single reason, other than "too much Eclipse". Also, Hyppolita is hard to see in SP, since Eudoros does the same sans Breaker and jumping but is a pure linker and she is only a wildcard, but she's the only Eclipse smoker for O12... My first Infinity game ever was a Squalo "speculate" with my Myrmidon fireteams until they were paste, after said Squalo started crying a river when Atalanta chipped its armor one AP shot at a time in ARO when the player was overconfident, so I'm intimately familiar with the "sh*t rains on you, dodge or die". Please don't claim marking an enemy trooper and raining Guided missiles on them until they explode is a proof of being a "good player", it's like spending your first ARO turn (going second) watching as a EM grenade launcher has a field day on your Achilles, or even better, on your WP12 Roadbot/Wp13 Raptor... Luck is luck. There is a limit on how much accounting can be shoehorned into the game before making it an absolute mess. I would not be against a rule stating that you can only use each Trooper's grenades once per turn, however, at least the Eclipse ones (not that should limit would stop Tohaa, but it would certainly limit SP). I agree, and they make an effort to promote the last Operation factions (at least one of them, at least the one they want to sell the most) and the latest ITS shenanigan. However, I think it's useful to promote awareness of the most egregious exploits and unsound mechanics. I agree this would balance the issue against the hacker-marking in ARO, and allows the receiving player a better chance to engage with his opponent instead of just having to endure a barrage while trying to dodge (because yeah, you roll ARM after getting hit... by an EXP weapon closer to top damage...) I disagree, simply because you can use your hackers to mark enemy troopers as an ARO, regardless of their Hackable trait, so if before I could move any troop aside from hackers, Remotes, HI, TAGs, etc... through an enemy hacking area and keep engaging in whatever, now I have to either move-reset (and if I have been hacked already, I reset at -3), or surround the area looking for a vector to fire at the Pitcher (if possible). This means that by throwing a repeater network and having a Guided weapon, my opponent is already forcing me to burn orders, even if he does not shoot the ML. Remember, also, that the Marked state no longer dissapears at the end of the turn! Occam's razor: go for the simple. And it's simpler to solve the mess in the Guided part, than look for every unit with a Fastpanda, Repeater, Pitcher, Deployable Repeater, etc... in the Army. Also, most KHD's also have Camo state, most of the exceptions are characters like Bit, Kerr Nau, etc... or troops that are a unit of hackers and have the KHD option (interventor...), or units that go inside of a Fireteam (Deva BSG), etc... Trying to make it so we use the KHDs in IMP state as anti-Guided umbrellas is even more convoluted... I don't see "niche" something like Kusanagi BS14 with EM grenade launcher in a pure Core (note you could use Kusanagi as Lt and bring any other moira, like the HMG for advancing, or a second EM grenade launcher...) ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 5 2 MOTHER AGATHA Vulkan Shotgun / Pistol, EXP CC Weapon. (0 | 38) KUSANAGI MULTI Rifle, E/M Grenade Launcher, Zapper / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 39) CENOBITE Chain Rifle(+1B), Flash Pulse / Heavy Pistol(+1B), DA CC Weapon. (0 | 21) CENOBITE Heavy Rocket Launcher, Light Shotgun / Heavy Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (1.5 | 27) REVEREND MOIRA (Lieutenant, Specialist Operative) MULTI Rifle, Zapper / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 23) 1.5 SWC | 148 Points Open in Infinity Army Pure fun when you have troops that can eat both the IMM and ISO states, and suffer a -12 to all resets until they remove it. Also, I see not much need in the setup of a repeater network thanks to the Initiate Observants, PH11 infiltrators with camo (1 use) with minelayer and deployable repeaters for 21pts (AVA2) and BS12 SMG. The worst thing this two have is how horrible to assemble their left arm is -.-U Anyways, making it so Marked state is consumed as part of the Guided OR Speculative declarations, and so both share the same CD, seems a good first step (with more, or not, to follow, depending on what happens) to me. In the meantime, other Fireteam charts have gone to 2 haris and 1 five man Core. I propose you a change: give SP a limit of 1 five man Core and 2 Haris, and we call it golden, because as costs, AVA and points are, specially with Reinforcements, making 3 cores of 4 man is simple atrocius, specially at 250pts. Of course other fireteams went worse, that was because Corvus decided on Pure and non-Pure fireteams at the beginning of this year just because people was linking four cheerleaders with the cheapest loadout with one Wildcard. What you are not mentioning is how Fireteam composition in Steel Phalanx only changed with the addition of the Makhai and that's it, so when other factions were enjoying thinks like the ShangJisus with 4 Zanshis or the Kamau with 4 fusiliers, we were still playing with the old.
Yeah, like you can get some information out of it like noticing yeah, Pitching Missiles causes issues, but people losing their shit over Steel Phalanx's performance representation at this tournament really need a reality check. You wonder why it runs counter to the Vanilla is OP as shit narrative? Well when you put a mission in the packet that punishes the shit out of vanilla because of order efficiency, and forces everyone into a box in the midfield where GEE I WONDER WHERE STEEL PHALANX EXCELS AT and then act confused about it over performing and being highly represented. Where were the Ariadnans with their Bear boogiemen? I dunno... maybe they're kinda unreliable when you put a mission in the packet that can straight up make you lose because you couldn't put sufficient high tech options like hackers/bears/MSV/HI to score reliably. Fuck me dead, it ain't rocket science here.
As someone who was there in the kraken, amidst of the pool of SF players I can only say this was the most disappointing big tournament ever. A month ago I already made a video predicting this was coming, and I hoped I was wrong, but sadly I was spot on. 3 of my 6 rounds were against SF. All of them running the same lists. My list was not Guided missiles, but it was tailor made to fight SF with all the MSVs and Eclipse I could afford to carry. The only reason I scored so high in this tournament is because I was playing anti-meta and almost no one managed to surprise me aside from Iro and his Overdron. Let me be clear, I think SF has a problem, but it's not the one most people are describing here. The problem is that they have some profiles that are so absurdly good that outshine the others in a way that there is no reason to take them. Instead of giving Eudoros every ability and the kitchen sink, just spread those abilities among other profiles. Make people like Alke useful, give people reasons to play Thyreos... balancing isn't always about nerfing a troop into oblivion, it can also be about spreading skills to make list composition important. I played 3 different SF guys those days, from places all around the world, and all of them were playing the exact same list that my fellow player in barcelona plays: Eudoros, Pandora, Phoenix, Atalanta, 2 flash pulse, 2 antennas, spice up to your liking with Agemas and Makhes. There is no other list. That is THE LIST. And when you get to that point with any army, things need to shift so other troops get more viable.
I mean, you take a bunch of strong, versatile, and aggressive profiles stacked with mim-6, discount the entire army with linkable Frenzy and Impetuous, and then give them some of the strongest ARO pieces in the entire game. Is anyone actually surprised here?
Interplanetario works in a weird way as a tournament, on one hand you have the Kraken masters who are the top players (satellite winners ectr) competing among themselves and the prodigies who are the anyone can enter tournament, the top winners of both categories face off in the end for the one winner. As it was explained to me last Interplanetario from players who were playing in the Kraken category, both metas and strategy of scoring are different in these categories, this is why last year the tournament results when all were mashed together were quite different from what one would expect to see. What I want to see once the data from Interplanetario are released is what is the armies distribution in each category and the lists each category had, plus if they are all ranked together as one tournament or as two separate tournaments and a one off this time.
This year Kraken and Pulpi were the same. Players were in one tournament or another randomly. No ELO criteria at all. A bunch of players in Pulpi had higher ELO than others in Krakens. Missions had high Impact. 2019 interplanetario SSO was one of the dominant faction. SSA suits this year very well because of biotecv. having more fireteams than average, an approximately 96% to put eclipse in place and access to the unique Hidden Deployment with visor 2 with ML. We could say second best was Bakunin because Chimera and Riots. I believe right now someone merged both tournaments to find the "interplanterio" ranking, but it will be really really artificial. However, it will show how was the distribution.
This seems like an anecdote not a pattern. There are too many variables to declare the sky is falling and Steel Phalanx is OP.
That seems balanced and fine, it's not like they have a means to, on multiple redundant profiles, completely ignore any enemy ARO they would have problems dealing with and go for missions without the opponent being able to do anything about it. Oh. Wait....
If nobody was expecting what we saw at Interplanetario we could think it was only an statistic aberration, but it wasn't, I think nobody was surprised to see too many Phalanx there. Complaining about SSA are there "forever" and after rework they increases. Many diffusion channels (podcasters and youtubers) predicted the outcome we had. Victory will be for SSA or Guided ML tactic. We had both in the final. Yes, if we take a look to TOP10 pulpis is not like Kraken where 7 of 10 players were SSA, but Pulpis had more Guided ML tactics per player. Talking with people on Kraken nobody suffered, or almost nobody, but they did in Pulpis. Of course, we will have to wait to see if Corvus Belli makes public all participants lists. So we can relay not only in "somebody told me ... ".
I think this is honestly a little bit worth worrying about. Results like these attaches to a brand and sticks around, and getting more friends to pick the game up gets harder if Infinity develops a reputation for FOTM and power creep. While not prioritizing game balance is fine, addressing the egregious stuff is necessary. And yes, this may require nerfs to things that are not PanO S4 REMs.
I think the whole cheap mimetism -6 in links is a problem. Mimetism -6 seems to be a discount skill now. Maybe it's my own fault playing Tartary Army Corps on a tournamet (not the Interplenetario, I'm too much of a noob for such an event) but facing Bakunin and 2x Aleph makes me feel the need for another faction for tournaments. Without any MSV2 an only one MSV1 in the whole faction, I feel pretty helpless against this whole mimetism -6 spam. Combined with guided ML and no countermeasures against hackers except guns makes this low tech faction no fun on actual tournaments.
Two fixes that are needed across the game will help with this Steel Phalanx over-optimization problem. 1. Eclipse Grenades become White Noise zones only. They do NOT function as normal smoke. Doubles the orders needed to remove line of sight for both MSV troops and normal troops. 2. Troops which are Impetuous or Frenzy still lose their ability to take cover while in link teams. Make that discount they get actually have a drawback.
Given the adverse reaction my local group has on my Bulleteers I think that they might agree, but now beyond assisted fire they also get +1BS from Agnes (I do not play generic PanO) and can be part of haris as reinforcements.
Speaking strictly about the mechanics design of these units, I'd remind you how Moiras were prior to getting Frenzy; "unplayable garbage" due to cost. Mimetism-6 is quite an expensive skill, as it turns out, but it helps if you have another skill that offers 5 to 20 points discount - especially if you can essentially choose when to suppress the skill or use it for its benefits.
