(Decided to add a poll last minute to satisfy my curiosity) There's not much that I miss from N3 and from reading through the N2 rules, and while getting back the falling mechanics would be nice for super-jump, the thing I miss the most is the small teardrop impact template, and I think going back to it would be a better thing for the game. For those who got into the game with N4, let me recap a bit: back in N3 all the shotguns had two mods of firing, the hit mod was basically the same, and there was no direct template, instead these weapons used the same small teardrop template which was placed from the nearest part of the target's silhouette in the straight line from the direction of the shooting model to the target, there was some jank with being able to direct that template up or down a bit, and that probably should be left behind, so I'll move on to how and why I would like this to be re-implemented in N4. First the why, there's two main reasons: the first one is that while now the shotguns have a direct template mode, there's no Intuitive attack trait on it, which can be misplayed if you don't get told about it beforehand or didn't read the rules super carefully, though this one is a minor problem. The second one is more about how I feel about it impacting (no pun intended) the health of the game, and not in a good way, it really feels like there's too much direct template weapons in the game in N4, which makes one of the worst(?) types of units in the game worse, that's 30+ pts models with 1 wound and not a great PH to dodge it from my point of view, and these are already often left behind in favor of either just a cheaper model, or something with at least an NVI, plus this shifts the game from model has template = good to model doesn't have template = bad, I'm oversimplifying this of course but I think right now anyone would choose a model with a direct template weapon over an alternative without it. There's also the things like speculo, fidays and Jan staar, which start the game just outside the opponent's deployment zone and can put fireteams especially and grouped up models in general in a lose-lose situation, if you choose to dodge you just get two shots on 18s in the face, if you choose to shoot then you're better be able to tank two DAM14 hits, sure there's ways to play around this, but impact templates instead of direct templates on shotguns would change this to a face-to face roll with all models under the template, which would be better for all models that don't dodge on a super-high target number, and for those it'll still be 2 shots vs 1 dodge on just about equal numbers, which doesn't seem too bad. There's also an interesting potential for flanking with the shotguns, you can get a shot at hitting multiple models with a template from the side if you manage to outflank a poorly placed fireteam, though I rarely see core teams playing aggressively these days. I think It's getting into a bit of a ramble, so I'll get to the implementation part, and it's pretty simple really: first, bringing back the impact teardrop template for shotguns and similar weapons, then making them work in a way N4 circular impact templates work: you put it down flat against the surface the target is standing on, the template must touch the part of the target's base that is the closest to the attacker and be directed straight along the line between the target and the attacker. I'm sure that can be neatly packed up into a more rules-lawyer friendly version, maybe CB could add an axis over the teardrop template in the PDF so that it's easier to put it down correctly, with a straight-line laser pointer which is a mainstay of tournament play as far as I'm aware this should work well enough, I think I might try to rewrite the N3 wording based on N4's impact template rules if this need to be presented more clearly. Oh, and one more reason for this, as it is now the impact template weapons feel rather unimpactfull, it's very easy to avoid them in most cases, short of being gotcha'd with a hidden deployment Missile launcher it's almost always possible to space out roughly 2" between your S2 models to not get any models other than the target hit by the template, so most of the time impact templates are just ignoring -3 damage from cover and a deterrent/punishment for misplaying, and with teardrop impacts it's actually possible to hit more than one model if you play it right.
Impact template more powerful than direct tamplate (for shotguns). For example - Daylami (11 BS) wants to shoot at your units (10 PH / 12 BS / 0 ARM) from around the corner - 2 dices with templates: N4 - you use dodge - tempates vs 10 PH - For everyone who gets a template: - 43.9% chance 1 or more wounds. - 21.1% chance 2 or more wounds. N3 - you use dodge - 17 BS vs 10 PH - For everyone who gets a template: WO cover - 69.0% chance 1 or more wounds. - 25.5% chance 2 or more wounds. - 1.9% chance 3 or more wounds. (crits) In cover: - 57.7% chance 1 or more wounds. - 15.6% chance 2 or more wounds. - 0.9% chance 3 or more wounds. N3 - you use BS attack - 17 BS vs 12 BS: - 64.9% chance 1 or more wounds. - 23.0% chance 2 or more wounds. - 1.8% chance 3 or more wounds. (crits) So, in order to reduce impact from shotguns - it is necessery to remove templates from this weapon. For example: Or reduce blast mode damage (because it is a pellet ammo) Or should the user use the BS attribute when using the template (like intuitive attack)
The old impact templates were stronger and definitely a lot fiddlier and harder for people to use. I do not miss them. At the same time, I think the game currently has too many direct template weapons. It's heavily influencing what people consider are worthwhile units in a very negative way - it is excluding a lot of unit without providing a positive effect in the other "end". Preferably, I'd like to see this go as well. Removing DTW mode from shotguns will not quite remove DTWs enough, as dedicated DTWs are still very common, but it will greatly reduce them much closer to the point where short-ranged single wound units may be regarded as worth experimenting with. If CB wishes to experiment a bit with shotguns, to keep them from being just a shorter-ranged basic gun, perhaps borrow a bit from their real life implementation where they are often referred to "door openers" or similar. How about an anti-materiel CC mode for dealing with destructible mission scenery?
I mean they really weren't. A line laser was all it took to line it up accurately, which is something most players probably already own to check LOF arcs.
I love shasvastii, but I can't play with them properly because every enemy troops with 10-15 cost can easily trade with my 30+ cost troops. "You have 30 cost mim -6? Bruh, I have 10 cost LSG!"
Funny, that´s the same thing I thought last time when the 6 points MOV 6-4 irr imp suicide bomb berserked into my anything :-D DTW are a common sight in the game, sometimes it´s on a dirt cheap warband, sometimes on a 40+ Heavy hitter. The art is, not to come close to them with your preciouse mimetism units. Unfortunatly there are a lot of units that like to come close and are good at it, either by infiltrating, camo, running very fast or combat jump. High cost single Wound units are always tricky to play, no matter which kind of defense they have (if any)
yes, but If it didn't come to BtB, you know that it can only make a template, and you can dodge. You won't get 2 shots at 17). When tiagha berserk you - you can kill it by ARO. LSG troop can use hit mode to your dodge or put down templates if you use BS attack, without BTB contact. This is similar, but in one case opponent spend the entire order coming into BtB contact and You knows what will happen next, in the other You choose ARO to the first part of the opponent's order and the opponent has an advantage due to this (still not coming into BtB contact)
Taigha are extremely hard to stop without mid to long range hard ARO- which are easy prey for Caliban Spitfires and Q-Drones relative to their cost. Shasvastii is actually one of the few matchups I consider my NCA to have an upper hand in because Bolts can handle all their usual active shooters with ease, but most factions have to run an annoying stalling game where they're damned if they do or don't in terms of defenses as shooters will mangle a hard defensive line while Taighas and Speculos will heavily punish null-deployment. In terms of impact teardrop templates, I'm happy to see them gone and am completely fine with shotguns just being a shorter-ranged yet accurate gun. DTW spam needs to go; between that and Hacking playing in cramped midboards just isn't fun for me anymore without exceptional movement or durability skills. We should have a perfectly usable impact template weapon in the Grenade Launcher anyway.
Me when the 7 point Taigha trades for my 30-point HI: Me when the 30-point Speculo trades for my 75-point TAG: Me when the 32-point Noctifier trades for my entire 120-point Core link: You're playing a faction that is excellent at trading pieces efficiently, what are you smoking? If you're complaining about losing Jayth to warbands, then you might have discovered why the forums think they're hot doo-doo garbage. Just run a Gwailo or Sheskiin Haris instead.
Taigha will be able to put your HI into unconsciousness with a 22% probability (2 percent more than using an BS attack in response to shotgun template), only using a berserk, which will lead to it death. It is CC attack. With template it can't kill HI/NWI troops by 1 order. Speculo can't trade with CC attack, only with BSG. Every troop with em ccw and CC 20+ can destroy TAG. Or block it in close combat. It is all about CC Attack, when you must move to BtB contact. You lose cover (total cover) and get all aroes. Noctifer is so dependent on the location of the cover/buildings on the table that I don't even know what to say to this. I had at most 20% of games where I could predict that I would be able to shoot an inactive link member, hitting several troops. + the presence of a noctifer can be calculated and you can play more carefully
22.5% vs. ARM 4, 27.5% vs. ARM 3, if we're being completely fair, but I for one dislike being able to lose a tenth of my list to the equivalent of flipping 2 coins and having them both come up tails. And most of the Shas lists I've seen in person have 3-4 Taighas, so it's pretty statistically likely that I'm losing something valuable to one of them and it costs Shas players almost nothing to bring. Or to put it another way: if 3 Taighas die for free and the 4th one trades for an Orc, the Taighas made their points back. Speculo can absolutely trade with CC attack, because there's like 3 TAGs in the game that are going to take a Face to Face vs. the CC 25 Monofilament attack instead of using their template to (almost) ensure a trade. And unless you cover the TAG's base with allied troops/markers so it's not possible to walk into CC, Speculos are very, very good at getting there with their smoke, double-marker state, and stealth. "Long Range ARO piece dependent on being able to place it correctly, more news at 11." Just stick it on a long sight line in HD and leave it there until you get a good shot off; you don't have to reveal the first time you get an ARO opportunity, so just save it until something juicy pops up. Usually happens in Round 2 when the midfield fight ramps up. It's pretty frequent that you'll be able to catch at least a Haris trying to move up to an objective at some point of the game, and sometimes you catch a lot more. And then you've still got a BS 12, Mim 6, Dogged Missile Launcher causing problems. Oh and if push comes to shove it can grab its Assault Pistol and go kill things in the midfield. And yeah sure your opponents can play smarter to avoid it, in which case you spent 32 points to definitively own a section of the board. That's a pretty good deal. Especially since once that starts happening you can start taking an extra Malignos instead and bluff the Noctifier, in which case you own a section of the board for a grand total of 0 points. And at the end of the day this is all in a faction with a BS 15 B4 DAM 15 gun that Wildcards. If you're having trouble trading efficiently with Shas, you either aren't taking their best tools for it or you're playing them wrong. And considering you complained about 30 point Mim 6 models get traded with shotguns, I'm gonna assume you've got lists stacked with Jayths (as the other Mim 6 option, the Malignos, have marker states and longer ranged guns to make Templates usually a non-issue until Round 3). Stop stacking your lists with Jayths. They have issues.
Points isn't everything, you also need to consider slots as a cost and tactical impact and concern for your opponent as an asset that's not quantifiable by a dice roller. Taighas have other qualities that makes them excellent order-wasters, so even if they can't reach a target at all they tend to make their investment back. There's two ironies at play here; one is that Taigha-like units are one of the reasons why costly short-ranged units with Mimetism as their only defence are frowned upon and the second is that Taighas are so good that they almost never need their DTW. Though let's leave the topic of Shas, please? This is the rules suggestion subforum, if you wish to discuss why or why not use Jayth, please do so in the Combined forums.
These are other problematic units - cheap CC specialists (with smoke). If we discuss cheap units with DTW (which in 50% of cases are also cheap CC specialists with smoke =D) - it may be enough to reduce the DTW Burst to 1
