And Senor Massacre (N2HS IIRC) - he predates Aristeia! too. Wild Bill was mentioned in Infinity fluff as an Aristo, but not reresented as a profile in infinity prior to Aristeia, that's true. I agree, one or two Aristoi in Infinity would be OK, what we have now is, well, a lot of them. Luckily, there are still several that stay in Aristeia! only.
You can divide the Aristoi involved in in a few categories Military propaganda icons Lei Gong, Bixie, Mendoza and Hippolyta Military personnel/ mercenaries who used it to boost their fame. Lunah, Wild Bill, Senor Massacre, Hannibal, Laxmee and Valkyrie Dropouts who have their fame or skills to sell and make the ends meet. Shona Carano, Mushashi and Fiddler The "Agents" Taowu and Parvati And the "odd" ones Dart and Maximus. 10 out of 17 are straight soldiers or mercenaries they are not alien to the battlefield and most of them can consider it their main job, Aristeia been a side job, or they were created to be that military Icon and like it or not, they need to be on the battlefield. 3 out of 17 are figures who cannot do anything else to survive, Mushashi is hunted, Fiddler... well.. and Shona is an adrenaline junkie who cannot do a normal job, she is a mercenary and really cannot go back to Aristeia or want to go. 2 out of 17 are agents, Taowu uses Aristeia as a cover and Parvati is been used due to her fame by Aleph. 2 out of 17 are the real "odd ones" Dart and Maximus are idealists who put themselves in line for their ideals, well Maximus is, Dart is another Adrenaline Junkie, I have to point out that regardless of that Optimate are military specialists so any character opting to be one is for the military.
Now the precedence of Aristos fighting as mercenaries or part of a factions military exists in Infinity long before Aristeia was released I cannot remember if Lunah was out before Aristeia was released, while I understand the logic behind not wanting characters but units, as I said before, because I subscribe to the design logic that they are an AVA 1 unit made specifically to cover a niche I do not mind them been characters.
Also, the Mendoza you can bring in N4 isn't the same one doing interviews in front of cameras, and probably not the same one that was in the Hexadrome.
Indeed. He’s less fiery Angel of wrath and more soldier of God wrath these days… I personally like the aristos profiles, I find them quite fun and have no issue with their inclusion. I’ve written many fun lists with them. I think the main problem that many have with them though is the fact that some of the characters seem very overpowered, so much so that not taking them in a list is almost detrimental. At any rate, Maximus working for Aleph here gives a possible look at what Ajax may look like. I really am loving that damn bug though. I think it’s the arm blades, they just scream old school anime. Need to find some extra pennies to buy them.
I was more meaning that Mendoza makes heavy use of stunt doubles to do his actual competing/fighting, to the point where I'm not sure he's actually ever held a weapon outside of promotional material.
Ah, sorry. My brain has been addled by the days heat and the long day I’ve had. Also trying to summon dark and terrible things to pay for my toys over the years has taken its toll.
Regardless of stunt doubles the persona is the same, so the collective "Mendoza" is committed to be on the battlefield, not sure of the Mendoza proper combat prowess the combat double says he is good, but too good of a commercial product to be really risked.
I agree with almost all of what you guys say (and so many of us agreeing on something is particularly notable in forum existence!) Spoiler: Epic, Anime, and Scale of Narrative in Infinity There are two issues to consider here: 1. Power Balance of Character vs. Non-Character Troops in an Intricate Combat Skirmish Game: Namely Characters being used to patch factions together in ways that you can't do without them. Having to field a particular "retired sportsman" (good phrase!) to achieve a supposed military success breaks our suspension of disbelief a bit, if we consider Infinity games to represent moments in a galaxy-spanning fictional story. Like most of you, I find myself slightly irritated by this. That is, until I consider the second issue: 2. Scale of an Anime-style Epic and Allowed Silliness: Despite the really-decent crunchiness/complexity/simulation of the game design, Infinity has never been a hard-scifi game once you include the narrative (which in turn guides which troops and miniatures are designed to use these decent simulation rules). It's an anime-style space opera story that happens to also have impressive depth and resonance because the folks writing the story are various forms of genius/well-read geeks. Gutier and co. have picked some really powerful images and tropes from a lot of sources, and done a good job of stitching them together into something fascinating, yet kept it pretty silly at the same time. Thus Anime yet also Epic. Inherent to the scifi anime storytelling frame and the space opera genre it draws upon (and indeed most heroic stories), specific individual personalities play an outsize role in the events. It's ridiculous but that is kind of worn on the sleeve and exaggerated purposefully. Even to the point of barely-credible yet appealing justifications about Recreations and Sports Heroes rising to the defense of a multi-star-system civilization. From the Illiad to Kurosawa to Star Wars to Hyperion to Macross/Ghost in the Shell/Evangelion/etc., the (selection of 2 to 20) plucky hero characters and their two annoying/ridiculous servants/peasants just happen to be in the pivotal place at the pivotal time... or even time-s- across a decades and vast reaches of space. As does a persistent journalist/manic pixie dreamgirl, and a benevolent but slightly sinister mastermind/teacher, etc. etc. Luke, the Droids, and Yoda: the Major, Bateau, and Lt. Colonel Aramaki; The Teenage mutant Ninja Turtles and April O'Neal... etc. Infinity's story expansion from N3 to N4 has upped the ante, raising the scale of the game from black ops to focuspoint fights in a major invasion. This also ups the number of heroes involved, as suddenly every territory is involved all at once, and the stakes are extinction/conquest. It's straight out of the Iliad, or the Argosy... but still with a strong note of that hyperactive borderline-annoying cutesiness that flavors so much Japanese scifi. With that lens in mind, the design and story choices make more sense to me. The seeming overfocus on specific personalities whose stories have been told from multiple angles now makes more sense. And the appearance of a specific set of characters in everything makes sense. I think they kind of wink at it in the fluff text for pulling Maximus into the fight: it's about something bigger than national/factional identity at this point (though it's still about that) and all heroes must rise to the call. I personally -still- find a particular retired sportsman or a generic screeching journo showing up to firefights constantly pretty annoying, but I also understand it as part of the "image and story matter as much as who wins" trope woven throughout Infinity. It's an interesting take on postmodern /mass media life, with a bit of "but we still have to fight epic battles, and people still die." that's in most hero tales. Not sure if I explained my take well, but I have a feeling most of us have the same admiring/begrudging approach to the Infinity story, depending on what degree of hard scifi lover/cackling weeb/Illiad-Argosy stan each of us may be (or what patience we have with those bits at any given moment).
Would it mechanically really matter if the characters were named as generic units? Grand Magister instead of Joan, Kalatrava knights instead of Mendoza ectr ectr? Characters just add an extra flavor for units designed to be one off niche specialties.
Mechanically? No of course not. But fluffwise I'm sure many of us, myself included would much more appreciate if said nieche specialists would be ava1 elite tacticool dudes and dudettes instead of sly marbos. I mean that's what my headcanon is most of the time but still less satisfying.
Mechanically, that would change nothing but thematically that would allow players to have their own "characters", naming them as they want, giving them the story they want, in short get to grips with the universe. It's different to play with Joan than a Grand Magister even if mechanically it's the same profile. The Grand Magister is yours, Joan is Joan. Note, that whith the proxy rules, nothing is preventing players to make that themselves : using Joan profile but with a proxy miniature and calling it whatever you want as long as other players know it's Joan. And I don't think all characters have this "problem" (for the lack of other words). From what I read, that's the cross-faction / cross-game nature of some characters that break the suspension of disbelief.
Nothing stops players from owning the game and introducing their own proxy conversions as stand ins for named characters. Personally I feel fluff wise characters benefit more Infinity than a generic profile in these instances. A generic "grand magister" would never introduce the depth Joan provides nor a mobile combat engineer (with combat helpers) would ever introduce the intricacies Fiddler has.
This is why I think a mixed approach is best. Playing Joan is one thing, and putting the face of PanOceanian faith onto the game board ought to be something with significance. But if every game starts looking like Overwatch then those moments become a little less special. There's a need for both Joan and a cheaper yet more generic "Grand Magister" to a degree, kept in balance, as it lets smaller, less-important black ops "Your Dudes" teams play without a marked disadvantage and also allows the big fanciful characters to stand out from the crowd more. Corregidor in particular probably has people mistaking Alguaciles for named characters at this point, since there's only one on the board! This is part of why I actually really like how CA's characters tend to be handled. None of them are auto-takes with truly unique and necessary capabilities, but all of them are distinct, flavourful and often intimidating in their own ways. You don't need Nourkias for competent melee, but he has an impact greater than a Daturazi or a Caliban whenever he shows up. By contrast, you go against NCA in Looting and Sabotaging or Mindwipe, you're seeing Shona, it's not a surprise, it has no impact, she's the only thing they can bring. Same with Perseus in Tunguska. Maximus could easily wind up in the same boat if he becomes the only reasonable heavy support option in his factions, but if CA gets a big named Rasyat or something down the line? That guy will be scary, because you could easily have underprepared expecting a Rasyat, or a Taryot, or possibly even a Caskuda.
The only thing I want to correct here is that Tunguska also gets Raoul. Which doesn't contradict your argument though, since he's also a character.
