Dodge +3 would be interesting, but they -do- already Dodge decently, which combines well with Mim -6. Adding Dodge +3 would really skew that, and this in an army that already has Taigha. Maybe a little too far. Still, not as big a change as Berserk (which Taigha already have as well). Increasing the availability of smoke in Sah also seems like a no-go, but maybe wouldn't be quite as bad here. Combined with Messer though (see below), might be a bridge too far as well. Better solution, no profile changes: Shifting their linkteam options to include Core would allow you to field a Core of Jayth (with a wildcard probably), a Haris Gwailo etc., and then your usual skirmish screen. That small fix would make me interested in taking a Haris of Jayth when an objective needs to be protected or something. Or to escort Messer up the field (and his White Noise can combine with Mim -6 really nicely: I do the same with the Vostok in Nomads and it's a real pickle for visor overwatch units).
Another thing in the lore is that they primarily fight Taiga. Sort like how Ariadnans fight the Antipode.
Ah, good point. So the Jayth might function like premium Taigha in some ways, if given a bonus to Dodge. That might be kind of appropriate. What they should NOT get is Berserk, imo. With Natural Born Warrior, MA3, AND Berserk they would be OTT.
You certainly have more experience than I do in infinity, but I’m not sure I agree. They are so expensive. We’re already at 90+ points for a Harris of a bunch of guys that in all honesty can’t do much, because: - they are slow - there are far better options in terms of CC in Shas - there are far better options in terms of button pushing units - there are far better gunners - they aren’t good ARO units: they are short range and will get wiped out by a regular 8 points schmuck with a template weapon I really don’t see which core of Jayth composition would make them interesting. Maybe they could go in a core of Nox and counting as (Nox). Yes, that is something that would make them an interesting, yet non game breaking, pick. This would also allow to not buff Vanilla further (even though you could make specific profiles for Shas). And also, that would allow them to have a dedicated, meaningful, place in a list. Because again, they are pricey aaaaaaaaaaas f***!
The problem is they do not look they do not deserve the cost, but they still feel they need that something extra. To be honest I have used them only once in a Haris and I had mixed results they worked flawlessly, but left me feeling they were always one step from disaster.
NBW and Berserk as a combination is kinda meh and should be avoided. There are way, way too many units with this combination of skills in the game already.
While they are not optimal in comparison to other troops, there is something to be said for just having fun with cool looking figures. I think that they are still good as defenders/counter attackers. They are especially good for defending objectives. While in cover, the opponent is going to have a hard time dealing with them at most ranges. Putting one or them on suppressive fire will be even better if they can’t engage beyond 24”. I would not want to deal with one of them if coming up on an objective. I also think they are ideal any-skirmish troops. They don’t want to fight much beyond the mid table. They are there to kill Morans, Zeros, Guilang, etc.
Proxy rules mean you can use anything as anything if it's the same silhouette size. So who cares about if a profile has cool looking figures. They are hot garbage. There are other units that do everything you want them to do for less. Jayth are way to expensive for what they do.
Personally I think the easiest answer is to give Jayth Frenzy. I don't particularly like that as a solution but it seems about the only way to reduce their cost, whilst maintaining their viability (and uniqueness) in SEF. Not sure as the BTS of 6 is really necessary, so maybe that stat could be halved and the ARM stat increased by 1 or 2 to compensate (after all Nox are ARM 1) Adding Shock immunity or Bioimmunity would be nice (and in keeping with their background) but that would bump the points up again. A new profile with Strategic Deployment may help too. Finally maybe removing the E/M mines or grenades from some of the profiles may help reduce cost and provide options for building up the Haris more cheaply. Alternatively, allowing the Tensho Expert to be a Wildcard may open up a greater variety of Fireteam options for SEF in general and may help see both Tensho and Jayth appearing on gaming tables
IMO the main problem with Jayth are that they are very very good at what they do and very very bad at what they don't. BS 12, MSV1, Mim -6 is an utterly fantastic profile for BS Attacks. CC 23, MA3, NBW and a DA Weapon is fantastic for CC Attacks. But when you have a unit that is so good at taking Face-to-Face rolls, your opponent is going to use tools that avoid FtF rolls. What's the best way to do that? Direct Template Weapons. And 1 Wound 0 ARM is the actual worst profile in the game for trying to take on DTWs. PH 13 is OK for dodging, but it's not going to win any awards and if you're dodging you're not making use of your excellent offensive stats. They are an extremely binary unit. If you can force your opponent to fight them on their terms, they are excellent. But they pay a heavy price for that excellence, and all it takes is one hillbilly with a double barrel to blow a unit worth a tenth of your list away. They also have a weird obsession with bringing DTWs themselves, which is the last thing they want to be doing with their stats. The Red Fury model could make for a good gunner in a versatile Haris, Tohaa-style, but they don't really have the Fireteam options to support that.
Also worth mentioning that all of those models have access to shotguns and mines/crazykoalas, which means getting to them is a challenge and once they do they often trade. Spending 3-4 orders just to trade with a cheaper model is not usually a great gameplan.
I've ran a red fury Jayth in vanilla a couple of times and it's honestly just another case of bakunin nun problem, a very expensive model with a lot of useful kit that shoots well (and in Jayth's case also fights well) but sadly evaporates to a bloke with a shotgun and a dream, the easiest solution would probably be a frenzy discount, but even a Dogged or NWI with maaaybe a slight bump in cost would be good, I like just about everything on the Jayth profile except for them being 1W ARM 0 when the game is in a place where having a direct template feels like the norm, not the exception, and even the models look noticeably beefier than other shasvastii, while both Jayths and Caliban are PH13 so having Jayths be 1.5W troopers would seem logical from the looks of the models.
There's one profile and one profile only that I rate, and it's the 25pt one. It looks counterintuitive, because you're paying loads for msv1 and mim-6 on the guy, and he's bringing templates as his main weapon. But stick him in a haris with Aida and Corax and you have a very violent little haris for 78pts. What does he bring? Well, 1) B2 EM grenades which, face to face, are pretty horrific unless into templates, 2) EM mines to gum up important positions, 3) B3 template for when his time comes and you want to shred a position, 4) very very good CC and 5) MSV & veteran for classifieds. It's not what you want Jayth to do, it's not optimal, but it does give you a really nice close-assault piece to go with your spitfire specialist and minelayer/smg for 25pts. A nox in that role would save you 11pts but that haris would no longer be able to mix it up when the rangeband closes. That 25pt Jayth can threaten squishy links, tags & HI, and can hang with pretty much anything in CC.
I agree, that is a great haris there. I was thinking similar when looking at them. But I think this is better than what I was thinking (Jayth 2Chain, SMG, Aida, as defensive unit). E/M mines are fantastic and I've Effed up some big things or plans with those. It made me think that one of the simplest things they should add to Jayth though is Stealth. Aida and Corax have it but Jayth don't.
Stealth would help them a lot, in a game I faced them they died because they did not have Stealth but Sargosh did.
Stealth is something that costs nothing on some troops as well. Such a little thing that will help a lot. Things that would make them better and LOWER the cost would be: Frenzy Impetuous Delete MSV Reduce Mimetisim Things that would make them better and the cost Close to the SAME would be: Stealth Dodge +1” Dodge +3 Shock Immunity Sixth Sense Things that would make them better and the cost MORE would be: Bioimmunity (I’d say it would be no cost if their BTS was 3) NWI/Dogged Regeneration Smoke Grenades Forward Deployment Nanoscsreen I like the MSV1 but I don’t really understand why they have it. If they were skirmish killers I could understand it but that’s the only thing that helps.
The MSV somehow protects them from being smoked tricked, so it’s kinda good. Smoke grenades would shine on them: smoke, and then go aggro. Going mimetism-3 instead of 6 would be a great way to decrease their cost. Again, they are meant to be forward, so exposed to DT hits.
