What if you start winning? what if you do what the meta say and keep loosing, or start loosing worse? What if? what if? The many big tournaments so far and probably many more to come has shown meta is not ironclad, people thinking outside of it can win in competitive environments and I do believe that adjusting to the play style the player prefers is more important that chasing a meta that may not suit them at all.
And you won’t necessarily know better until you have even more games under your belt. Knowing your list, knowing how it works for you, trying those things that look cool to you, refining your personal decision making; all of these take time.
Nah. If you change factions and start winning, it's because your old faction was underpowered, most likely. The fact that you're trying to avoid admitting that is toxic. Trying to enforce unfairness on people is a shitty thing to do.
Or it could be that the tactics you were using with the faction you lost with repeatedly weren’t conducive to your play style and the faction you won with was. Just because you might lose continuously with one faction and win with another may only reflect you and your play style, not whether or not a faction is over/underpowered. Unless you’ve run the data on that faction tens of thousands of times using every permutation of that list at 100, 150, 200, 250, 300, 350 and 400 points against every permutation of each faction at those points levels too and include things like missions, hvt scoring as well as the insane amount of dice rolling data you’ll need to include (how the dice was rolled, how hard, what surface, were they the same dice each time, to name but a few) then you’re never going to be able to conclude anything about that faction against another faction that may not be taken as conjecture. Let Darvain and others play how they want, with whatever minis they like in whatever setting they think is fun. It is after all a game. It’s meant to be fun. Giving advice is all well and good about what to take in a list and what works in certain missions. Sometimes however, regardless of how good a profile is, you just want to play with your toys.
And what happens if you change faction, start winning and the faction you changed to is one of the ones the meta deems "underpowered?" The fact you try to shove a local meta to players globally as the one true way to play when it is obvious and demonstrable this is not the case, is problematic. Experience and finding the faction and units that fit the players play style are the most important factor in Infinity.
I would advise trying different factions and different lists - not to chase some mythical meta, but to experience different playstyles first hand. Even if it is a faction you don't see yourself collecting, knowing how it plays is valuable when facing it on the tabletop. Try arranging double games where you swap armies and try again after the first normal game - then you can still get to play new armies, with fully painted models (big part of the enjoyment!) without having to actually paint new stuff. It removes the "surprises" that are a fun part of infinity, but it is very educational. If you're losing to an exprienced player, ask them to explain why their list works well - don't ask them why your list doesn't work. If they say your Hospitaller Core Link is bad, it will be that much more satisfying when you one day win with it. It is fun playing a thematic and unoptimized list too, if taken as a underdog challenge. BS21 Joan is crazy. I do recommend getting an EVO bot in the background to provide a minimum of firewalling, though.
Cool thing is, I am nearly immune to loss fatigue. I can say this from experience. Not only in Infinity, but in other systems too. I know I am crap and I am okay with this. Winning is good, but enjoying myself is better, so yes, I will play with my metal toys, and use those whom I like. Also, I am not stupid. Refer to as why straight below. I understand, that me, whom started in N4, can not even approach the level of understanding of the game and experience, of my opponents, whom played for years. So, naturally, before I even consider switching factions, I need to at the least, play a hundred games with that faction. And then maybe I should switch lists, not necessarily factions. In this game, I need experience first and foremost, losing is a part of learning. When I play StarCraft 2 on the ladder, I keep being handed my ass to, because a lot of people are better than me. So I need to tighten my micro, up my macro, and go again and again and again. Exactly the thing I am planning on, I just like playing painted, also had a kid a month ago so I am widening my stable of miniatures and adjusting to new daily routine. More games are in order and will be played. To me, the USARF in rules and in visuals represent the flip side of my enjoyment of Infinity (my other faction is a PanO Military Orders). They are low tech, with handy use of war crimes, really cool models all of whom I like. Except for Mules, in the looks department, I do not like them, shoot those straight into the sun, please. They are good for what they are, point and rules wise, but USARF do not lack in cheap bodies to generate orders, whom I like the look better. They do not have opressive camo. They have camo+mimetism pieces, but their stats are not agregious and using them does not make your opponent feel opressed. I have two, I am okay for now. MO and USARF play extremely differently, especially because I refuse the use of Trinitarians on the grounds that skulking in the shadows are un-knightly. As to your other points, I am trying to ask experienced players, the main problem is still my lack of experience (mistakes in the piloting department, do not leave your models in the open without a plan, they will die) and my sub-optimal lists (I am playing what I like, so... They are not always the best at what the faction can do.) I think, we can get this topic a little bit more on track with the lists. Should I share two of my USARF, or maybe it is not the place?
When that happens I'll let you know. The TTS meta is the most refined, basically. When the top TTS players go to local metas they clean up.
Poor mules! I like them a lot visually. I have 4 of them x) To your question: This subforum is the correct place to discuss ariadna lists. I propose you start a new thread for your lists.
That statement just sounds like you’re the one continuously losing and getting salty about it… if you’d said it in regards to other players then it could be taken as something you’re seeing in your own meta which is something that can be discussed as a part of a data set. As for TTS players meta being the most refined… again, subjective and not reflective of the game as a whole. More data is required to make such a statement. Much more data and from multiple sources not just one. Please do. Lists are always good to see. Also, what missions are you going to play? Others here may give advice on what may be fun to take or what they’ve seen do well. If it’s more about the experience than winning or losing for you then take whichever minis you’d like to play with! There’s a lot to choose from.
Play what you like but find a way to win with it. Infinity is mostly about the player, not the list. I've lately won a game with a TAC-list that relied on a Wardriver, 2 Mules, 2 Kuryers and lots of forward observers. Not a list that you could call meta.
They do not though as it is evident from tournament results. Don't get me wrong top TTS players are top players and as such they are quite capable on adapting and overcoming difficult and changing situations like all top players and Infinity is a game were player experience and familiarity with units is really important. But the TTS meta is just a meta and I have explained it to you many times, it is not the end all meta and will never be because all metas are local and are influenced by local conditions, models and armies availability, local players preferences, local terrain. Top players are defined by the understanding of their units, the knowledge of their opponents units and the awareness of the mission, the list and the army just complements their skillset. If the TTS attracts players that specific armies are tuned to their preferred play style, those armies will show to be the best, not because the armies are the best, but because the top players of the meta are best with these armies.
@Darvain, I understand the “I’ll only play what’s painted” approach, it’s my own as ell. Glad to hear you’re committed to the time needed, best of luck!
What tournament results are you citing? I'm going to ignore the rest because it's a bunch of wishful thinking on your part and not backed up by anything concrete.
How about all the recent satelites? As for the rest you are free to ignore anything that does not confront your view, it does not mean it is not there and it is valid, it means you are just willingly not seeing it.
Wow this went off course, haha. I'm not advocating "chasing the meta" or whatever that means, more exploring the faction to find out what works for you and when. I was just responding to their comment which seemed to (correctly) imply that they only run two lists, which is not the typical approach to the game. It is definitely a big restriction that is going to take some experience and luck to overcome in ITS missions. The game is inherently mission driven, so if you aren't adjusting what you play to align with the objectives of the mission, you're not going to have a more difficult time compared to a player who does not apply that restriction on themselves.. If the UKR works for you, then take the UKR, if it doesn't, then don't take it. Lots of people like Spetsnaz HMGs, I don't. That's not a good or bad thing, it's just that the unit doesn't typically work for me in the way I like to play. Any articles you'll find out there on the internet are going to be written from the perspective of what works for the author and when... at least that's the approach I try and take. I don't like saying something is objectively good or bad, I just share my experiences running them and what has and hasn't worked for me, and why. I'll get back to writing next week and hopefully get this thread back on track.
Completely agree. For me, enjoyment of tabletop wargames is 50/50 split between the actual game and the spectacle it presents. I really like games that encourage the miniatures and terrain to look good while playing - like Infinity and Epic:Armageddon - and conversely dislikes games that encourage weird positioning during play - like WH40K conga lines and car parks. Obviously, painted miniatures on elaborate terrain really adds to the value of the spectacle for me. I'll always play against people who haven't yet painted their minis, but I enjoy it more when they are.
Spoiler: I cannot help, but... Is it just me or does this sound like :-D Mmmh I think this "playing the TTS META" thing has one (for me understandable) point: Due to not having to drive to a certain place to meet and prepare minis and a table and a location, the TTS players tend to have a lot more games under their belts and therefor you can expect them to have way more experience. I can work with that, our national meta has also quit some people playing TTS regulary, because it is easy to access and you can play one to three games a day every day against different opponents. Something I can just manage on tournaments. My problem with TTS is, that it lacks so much of the things i love about this game; the social interaction on a personal level (cause the last years teached us that manners change if u just interact with another over the internet), the use of actual miniatures i spend time painting, the feeling of rolling dice, and so on. I for myself did not enjoy playing Infinity on TTS, cause it is boiled down to the pure game of "someone has to win and someone has to loose" and nothing more. But, to make that clear: thats my personal opinion and I can understand completely that it is an amazing opportunity for everyone to learn the game, improve the skills and play infinity without meeting each other in person or take a long journey and taking a lot of time apart from the actual game. Especially whilest Covid it was the one thing for most of the players that made it possible to connect with other players and keep playing. Does TTS make players to top players by default? I don´t think so. But it defenetly will improve someones skill due to practice and game knowledge. Yes and no, in my opinion. Yes, because a good player will make the best out of the tools he´s given (or he has chosen to give himself). A lot of things in this game is "which fights do i take under what circumstances, and how can i switch the chances to my favor". A bad player with a good list will not know how to execute it, a good profile does just work if you know how to take advantage of it. an "no" in terms of: If there are two players with the exact same level of skill a properly thought throw list, that is tailored to the mission and the personal gamestyle/-plan and has synergies with the whole list by itself will defenetly trump a list that was wildly been clicked together without thought. That said: most list someone is playing has some thought behind, because skill starts the moment u open the ARMY tool. edit: For me it seems to work to play the units I like (i want) to play. I have no idea, why, but things that are told me to play them because they are very good (overpowered) never worked for me the way it worked for others. On the other hand, units i like to play felt always like....they worked very good (unexpectingly good). Maybe thats confirmation bias, or that I don´t care that it is more complicated to achive something with mentioned units.... That´s just as an additional thought. this is one of the most mature things i read in here for a long time and mirrors so much of what i would wish for new players to be. I miss the times when (for example) video games had a tutorial for the basics and after that u started loosing or having a hard time accomplishing the missions/game whatever, because you had to learn to work with what the tutorial explained to you. I recently read an article pointing exactly this out: everything has to work for everyone starting from the first second, because a lot of people cannot work with failure anymore. Thats a reason why games like the Dark Souls series became popular, although the kicked your ass for sucking: because some people wanted to have a challenge again. Thats the feeling i had with infinity; my first games I got myself beaten up quite hard, because I could not see what more experienced player saw. So I played more, changed strategies and units for the jobs to do.I learned that some units are hard to handle or need a set up and so on. Getting better at the game by learning and from experience, that´s something I like so much about infinity. Keep it up, you get better with every game. From my losses i learn so much more than from my wins.
