An Essay on Some Potential Over Performance Conditions of Spotlight into Guided Attacks

Discussion in '[Archived]: N4 Rules' started by Grotnib, Apr 13, 2023.

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  1. Grotnib

    Grotnib Well-Known Member

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    AN ESSAY ON SOME POTENTIAL OVER PERFORMANCE CONDITIONS OF SPOTLIGHT INTO GUIDED ATTACKS


    Disclaimer

    This essay is meant to my personal (and thus subjective) take on the current state (as of April 2023) of the Spotlight into Guided (Missile) strike meta of Infinity N4. Feel free to agree or disagree with the things I’ve written – but, please, please, please – remain respectful towards Yours truly, Your fellow commentors and especially the amazing people who’ve created and who continue to maintain this very best of games.


    I’m also aware that the game is about go through a major upheaval in the near future, but as my crystal ball is broken (I’ve tried changing the batteries and turning it off and on again to no avail), I’m forced to work with knowledge I have at the moment!


    Foreword

    Hacking is one of the more unique mechanics of Infinity, and I’ve always loved its inclusion in the game from the background perspective. I feel that the infowar aspect of Infinity was damn near perfected for N4 – it’s a highly relevant theatre of operations that offers truly meaningful rewards for those who are willing and able to put in the work and bear the cost of setting up an effective Hacking presence, while forgoing infowar altogether imposes major dangers upon one’s force.


    Furthermore, the modern-day Infinity’s BS Attack (Guided) attribute’s interplay with the universally applicable Spotlight Hacking program has introduced an extremely important rock-paper-scissors element to the game – Targeting opposing pieces for Guided strikes is an important counter to some otherwise potentially abusable strategies. My personal take is that the Hacking in general, and Guided strike meta in particular, are extremely well realized as of now. I am however leaning towards thinking that there are a few outliers of over effective (and thus somewhat exploitable) applications of Spotlight + Guided strike tactic, and I’d like to see constructive, well thought out and helpful discussion on if and how the situation should be addressed. I’m not claiming the utmost authority on the matter, and any suggestions I make are just that – suggestions – I’m fully willing to trust those in the positions of decision making to take full stock of the situation and act from the perspective of their goals and plans.


    The Basics – the Guided Strike Kill Chain

    Performing a Guided strike is relatively resource-intensive way of engaging opposing targets in Infinity – at least when compared to just peaking at a target from around a corner and firing a high Burst weapon at them “the traditional way”. Executing a successful Guided attack requires the player to…

    1. Get a Targeted State imposition capable asset into a position to execute the Targeting play.

    2. Forward Observe or Spotlight (or in the very rarest of cases, Pherobooster) the target successfully.

    3. Hit the Targeted opposing unit with a Guided attack and take them out.

    Each step of the kill chain imposes an opportunity cost in the form models its achievement requires, as well as in the form of Orders used to execute the said play. As I’m about to lay out in my breakdown below, I feel that the vast, vast majority of the time the opportunity cost imposed to the effectiveness to be expected is extremely well balanced. There are however certain specific situations that I personally find problematic.


    For the remainder of the essay, I will forgo covering Forward Observing and Pheroboosting as relevant ways of achieving the Targeted State as part of the Guided strike kill chain. This is not because if feel that Forward Observing is somehow irrelevant, but rather because I really can’t see problematic instances of it happening – so nothing to see here (and I mean that in the best possible way)!


    Mind Your Online Behavior – The Unique Mechanics of Spotlighting into Guided Strikes

    Spotlighting an opposing target for Guided strikes incorporates a couple of important mechanics that deviate from the “norm of Infinity”. Firstly, these types of attacks are indirect – the Hacker partaking in them does not need to have a Line of Fire to the target they’re Targeting, and the same applies to the model actually executing the BS Attack (Guided) itself. The indirect nature of the tactic means, that not only can it be used to circumvent defenses too strong to be engaged otherwise (which I find is extremely important a mechanic for the health of the game in and off itself), but additionally the Guided attack imposes no risk on the model using it, and the Spotlight is only dangerous to the Hacker using it if the target itself is a Hacker too.


    Then second important trait of this tactic is its inherent eventuality of success – where a model engaged my a traditional gunfighter has the (however small a) chance to take out their attacker, successfully Dodge out of Line of Fire, or survive a hit and fail their Guts Roll to escape the danger, there is no such respite when your piece is being Spotlighted – unless the model being engaged is a Hacker, their only choice is to Reset until they lose the face to face roll, only at which point they can elect to fail Guts if the 2’’ move will take them out their enemy’s Hacking area. Even if the now Targeted model escapes the Hacking Area via Guts, they still have to endure at least a single Guided strike AND successfully Reset out of the Targeted State in order to escape destruction.


    I believe that when evaluating the power, importance, and potential changes that could be made to the Spotlight into Guided strikes, the tactic’s relatively risk-free nature as well as the implicit eventuality of success need to be considered as part of the big picture.


    Ready or Not, Here I Come! – Getting a Targeted State Imposition Capable Asset into Position

    Hackers are limited by their Hacking Area when it comes to their ability to wage infowar – while they are capable of performing attacks somewhat regardless of their physical surroundings (hence circumventing some defenses/threats), at their most basic they need to be able to get within 8’’ of their intended target to start Hacking. Getting the infowar specialist into a position from which to perform their Spotlight attack will impose a cost – either Orders spent to get there, or a passed over-Infiltration roll/successful Parachutist/Combat Jump intrusion. The Hacker’s advance into the attack position is not without its dangers either, as Opponents can contest the advance with reactive turn threats such as overwatch AROs, Hackers of their own and in the case of many Factions, deployable weapons of various types. Once the infowar operative reaches their “sweet spot”, they must still endure the dangers of activating there (thus becoming targets for potential AROs). Furthermore, regardless of whether the Hacker actually ends up being a part of a successful Guided strike or not, they are a high value asset that the player either has to spend the resources to exfiltrate, or one they must more less condemn to being destroyed by a capable Opponent in their active turn. All in all, using a Hacker to advance into Hacking range to perform Guided strike enabling Spotlights seems extremely well balanced – it shouldn’t be controversial to argue that this tactic is very much a necessary counter to some other tactics (such as “turtling”).


    The alternative to moving the Hacker into the Zone of Control of their opposing model(s) is to extend their Hacking range via Repeaters. When using a model with an “onboard” Repeater (such as many Remotes), the risk on the Hacker itself is greatly reduced, but the Repeater carrying model still has to face the same threats and consequences as above, and in their case (without exception) without the protection afforded by a Marker State. There are obviously models that are better at this role than others (such as the legendary Morans), but they still comply with the same mechanical weaknesses and limitations as their more mundane peers. Just like with Hackers themselves, it’s hard to argue that Repeater equipped models are problematic to the game – they mostly have the same strengths and weaknesses as Hackers themselves, but by investing in yet another piece in the Guided strike apparatus, the player aiming to make use of the strategy is able to diversify their potential attack routes, and somewhat reduce the risk incurred by their Hacker(s).


    So far so good, right? Okay, let’s move on! The next potential way to extend the Hacking Area of aspiring Spotlight Hackers is to use a Deployable Repeater. In its most basic form, getting a model to a position to use a Deployable Repeater effectively imposes the same challenges as getting a Repeater equipped model there – with the added cost of having to use a Short Skill at the destination. The strength of the Deployable Repeater play hinges upon the fact the survival of the model extending the Hacking Area is immaterial to the success of the play – the model in question can make their terminal advance in full view of every single model in the opposing force, and be destroyed while placing the Deployable Repeater, and still succeed. In most cases the reactive player can challenge the advance of the attacking model (thus creating a necessary and enjoyable game of cat and mouse), but there are unfortunately cases where this isn’t truly reliably viable. This is mostly the case when the Deployable Repeater carrying model is Camouflaged (such in the case of for example with Hunzakuts and Guilang Skirmishers) – the Camouflaged State extends the “terminal advance” of the attacking model from a MOV + 8’’ Repeater Coverage to a whopping MOV-MOV + MOV + 8’’ Repeater Coverage – the humble (and affordable) Hunzakut can thusly threaten any enemy model within 20’’ of its starting position with a Repeater into Spotlight into Guided strike, with the only counterplay available being the extensive use of Mines (a defense both too cost intensive and not widely enough available to constitute a realistic option as a general counter). The problem is further exacerbated by the existence of the FastPanda equipped Heckler, whose “terminal advance” can threaten targets as far as 28’’ away!


    The other potentially problematic method of extending the Hacking Area of active turn Spotlighters is the use of Pitchers. While Pitchers in and off themselves are a good addition to the game, their part in the Guided strike kill chain can make them over performers – especially in Factions with access to Fireteam Compatible Pitcher armed models. The ability to launch two Repeaters per Order (with a 3+ Fireteam bonus) up to 40’’ away (hello Druze Hacker with X-Visor!), and then start Spotlighting targets for destruction from there on can be devastating. What I personally find problematic about this tactic, is yet again its low risk (the Pitcher firing model can screen themselves with Line of Fire blocking terrain, “slicing the pie” on any pieces looking to ARO against them from a distance, the only counter play to this in turn being Hidden Deploying an ARO piece in the right position, but this is yet again, is too scarcely available and too resource intensive a tool to be leveraged reliably), its high likelihood of success per attempt (usually landing one Repeater achieves the success state of the active Hacker’s player, getting two (or even more!) tries at a time makes this quite likely) and the eventuality of success (as long as there is Baggage available, the process can be repeated (pun intended) as many times as necessary, as longs as there are still Orders available). At the moment, Pitchers don’t seem to carry any meaningful opportunity cost either – they don’t cost any SWC, they’re usually found on the Hacker profiles that are highly effective in and off themselves and some Factions just lack them altogether – you can see the effects of this feast or famine effect for example by taking a look at the Haqqislam Sectorials… From a competitive standpoint the “decision making process” when building a list to win games quickly devolves into “does my Faction include (Fireteam compatible) Pitchers – if yes, include them!”


    A major part of the issue that I take with the overperformance of Pitchers and some Hacking Area increasing equipment deploying units is the fact that they cannibalize other Repeater bearing platforms by consistently outperforming them. As an example, when playing Ramah Taskforce I mostly tend to active turn Spotlight through my Rafiq Remotes, but when playing Qapu Khalqi, I don’t think I’ve done so once since starting to play Druze as part of my list, despite having access to the exact same Rafiq!


    I’m sure somebody is already jumping at the chance to point out that Spotlights in general are quite unreliable, despite their eventuality of success – you’re only rolling one dice on one dice, right? Well technically yes, but in practice no. First, while failing several dice on dice rolls in a row as the active player isn’t unlikely per se, you also do have to see the other side – succeeding in a number of Spotlights in a row isn’t unlikely either! For every game where a player uses the majority of their turn’s Orders to fail at Spotlights, there’s another game where they Target opposing models at will, and then proceed to take them all out. The other counter argument to the “it’s just one dice on one” is this: it doesn’t have to be. It can be four dice on one. If a player commits to the Guided strike plan (which they from a competitive standpoint usually should), the next logical step is to include several Hackers capable of executing Spotlight, and then using Coordinated Orders to hammer them home. This tactic achieves three things. Firstly, it diminishes the likelihood of a failed Spotlight against a critical target to an almost a non-factor level. Second, it makes Killer Hacker almost obsolete, as the most surefire way to take out dangerous enemy Hackers is to just mass Spotlight them and then blow them apart with Guided strikes. And thirdly, it makes reactive turn Hacking through Repeaters extremely deadly. See where I’m going?


    Incoming! – Hitting and Destroying the Targeted Opposing Unit

    Nine times out of ten, the difficult part for the attacker is over once Spotlight has been applied successfully. Usually the (well tucked away) Guided Missile firing platform rolls for 18s to hit their target, and no matter how many critical successes the reactive piece achieves, there won’t be any danger to the attacker, who just gets to repeat the Guided attack until the target is destroyed, or five Missiles have already been fired. The conclusion is not entire forgone though.


    While as long the Targeted State persists, the destruction of the reactive piece is almost inescapable, there is still at this stage a way out for the defending player – a successful Reset, followed by somehow surviving the (now Normal Roll) Guided strike. Some considerations to be taken here include:

    - Most Guided attack platforms are firing their BS Attack (Guided) with effectively BS 18, which results in a 90% chance of obtaining a successful result. This means that missing the crucial shot against a Resetting foe is extremely unlikely, as is losing several consecutive face to face rolls against Dodges – even in the rare cases where Sixth Sense is involved.

    - Targeted units attempting to Reset out of the State are usually doing so at about the chance of a coinflip, unless there are additional States that have been imposed upon them. They’re effectively just hoping to get lucky.

    - While hitting a 90% shot against a Resetting model is highly likely, taking them out for good with a single hit isn’t as straight forward. Even when using a Missile Launcher, there is a non-immaterial chance that the Targeted (even 1 wound) model will either pass enough saves to end up unconscious (and thus still recoverable), or they will pass enough saves to remain operational.

    Here in lies an important caveat from my point of view: getting Targeted does not necessarily mean that the reactive piece’s fate is sealed. As of now, the mechanics do exist, for the reactive player to maintain (some) agency in trying to save their piece. The problem however is that in the vast majority of the cases, the chances of averting the Targeted model’s destruction are too slim to be a significant enough deterrent to the attacker. But does that truly has to be so? Just take a look at the Ariadnan Factions – while they do have access to Guided strike platforms, some excellent Forward Observers and even a few Hackers, we usually don’t see them trying to leverage the strategy. While the difficulty of achieving the Targeted State on the enemies of Ariadna can be part of the reason for this, I’d also argue that their weaker Guided strike platforms tip the math enough in the favor of not trying, that we don’t sit here lamenting on how Traktor Mules yet again ruined our day.


    Where Do We Go from Here? – The Changes I’d Like to See

    Okay mister smarty pants, enough with the whining, what would you have the game’s designers do? I’m not going to stand (sit?) here and pretend that I know for a fact how to bring the over performing parts of the Spotlight into Guided strikes into line with the healthy uses of the tactic, but here are some potential ways I’d use to approach the situation:


    Target the Overperforming Hacking Area Extending Models: You could remove Camouflaged State possibility from models capable of carrying Hacking Area extending pieces of equipment. Such a decision was already made at the start of N4 when it comes to “onboard” Repeater carrying models (see “the Moran controversy”), and while the general belief is that the decision back then was driven my game mechanics considerations, I’d love to see the treatment applied here as a balancing tool too. To be clear, I’m not advocating blanket removing Camouflage from models such as Hunzakuts, Guilangs or Hecklers, but rather carving out their Hacking Area extending options as non-Camouflaging (and yes – I do understand that in practice this would mean removing Camouflage from the troops statlines, and then adding it back to most of their options via the profiles themselves).


    I also feel that Pitchers would need to see some major changes. They could be made into Technical Weapons, thus eliminating the possibility of gaining Fireteam bonuses with them. I’d also advocate for removing all the abilities that allow for the firing several Pitcher shots per Order – this would include taking a long and hard look at Bit&Kiss. Other and/or types of changes could include a drastic rebalancing of the Pitchers rangebands and making Pitchers cost SWC.


    Introduce More Counterplay and/or Cost to Repeater into Spotlight into Guided Strike: This change could be instituted by having a successful Spotlight impose a BTS save on the target, which would make applying Targeted via Hacking way more Order intensive. A small yet meaningful measure could also be to reduce the BS mod associated with Guided Attacks from a +6 to +3. On the other hand, a way to introduce counterplay, could be to bring back a form of the good old U-Turn EVO Hacking Program – players would then have a choice to include a soft countering model to the Guided strike strategy in their lists, and a player looking to leverage the Guided play against an Opponent fielding an EVO Hacker would either have to content with the fact that their Guided attacks just got a whole lot less accurate (not to mention more feasible to successfully Reset out of and survive), or they would have to spend the resources to take out the EVO first before proceeding. I’d personally word the U-Turn to act as an ECM Guided (-6), and it should be usable in ARO as to blunt some of the power of Spotlight into Guided alpha strikes.


    Another way to enable for the reactive player to participate in counterplaying against Deployed/Pitchered Repeaters could include making them (but not the “on board Repeaters”) valid ARO targets when they’re used as a means of performing Hacking Attacks – this would allow for troopers to shoot/Oblivion Repeaters in ARO to neutralize them, if they’ve been deployed into full view/Hacking Area of defending models, thus offering a potential way to terminate/slow down the incoming infowar onslaught.


    I trust that if CB indeed decides at some point to make changes to the Spotlight into Guided Missile strategy, they will take a measured approach to the matter – maybe you could introduce U-Turn (and/or some of the other changes proposed/possible) as ITS15 rules, and then taking it from there?


    Help Me CB – You’re My Only Hope!

    Carlos has repeatedly said in his videos (and I’m paraphrasing here) that “competitive players will do their best to find a way to break the game” and mister Bostria, I’m afraid I have to say we’ve found a way to do so. While some argue that “the GML play isn’t that prevalent in the(ir) current meta”, a bunch of us hardcore competitive players have walked the walk, and using the Spotlight into Guided strikes as a major part of your game plan has become way too optimal not to utilize. Not only is the strategy extremely powerful and safe (as I’ve outline above), its opportunity cost does not prohibit the inclusion of other strong units/strategies in the list being built, which in turn creates a world where some Factions just can (in highly competitive environments) clearly and dare I say arbitrarily outclass others based on their access to above the curve Hacking Area increasing equipment such as Pitchers.

    While as a competitive player I personally find the Spotlight into Guided strikes in some instances to be a problematically powerful tool, I definitely find it saddening as a diehard Infinity enthusiast, because I feel that the strategy’s current state diminishes the Factions that don’t have access to its over performing tools, as well as cannibalizes the other unit options available to the Factions that do have them. Infinity N4 is an amazing game – it’s the best game I’ve ever played, period. All I’m hoping for is that it becomes even a bit better by toning down ever so slightly the few over performance conditions of Spotlight into Guided strikes.


    While I’m not a big petitions kind of guy, if You more or less agree with the main point I’ve tried to make here, feel free to ping me and I can add your nick as a signature to end of this post.


    Have a great day everyone!


    With the utmost love, enthusiasm and respect, Grotnib
     
  2. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    The mechanic being problematic is a facet of a larger problem Infinity has, which is the game is highly skewed towards crippling your opponent through an alpha strike being an extremely effective strategy.

    That's regardless of how the alpha strike is delivered, whether it be something as simple as a Rokot managing to gut a fireteam with a lucky hit, putting a Bearpode in your opponent's DZ, a Speculo, ramming a 14 order Avatar into your opponent's lines, or precisely dismantling key units via guided missiles.

    The current damage that you can inflict via guided missiles is just a symptom of a wider problem.

    From my own experiences the easiest fix is to simply up the points limit. At 400 points the game balance shifts heavily away from alpha striking to mission oriented play. With more combat effective models on the table strategising around advancing and attacking in waves becomes more important than removing the few combat effective pieces your opponent has from the picture.
     
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  3. Time Bandit

    Time Bandit Vulnerability (Total)

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    I think you get an awful lot right in this post. I think it's especially important to lay out the reasoning clearly like this, as I suspect there's just not a clear understanding of the big impact that GML has on the competitive scene, at CB HQ. As you say, it just needs a tweak to bring it down a bit.

    I get that GML is an important part of N4 hacking balance, in that it gives a hacking list 'teeth' when going into lists that aren't otherwise hackable, but currently it's just not well balanced, and is particularly egregious in some factions. X-visor pitchers, burst 3 pitchers, turn 0 midfield repeaters and markerstate fast-panda carriers are all a really big problem for GML balance. Either these delivery systems need to be toned down, or the actual ruls for GML need turning down a bit.
     
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  4. Time Bandit

    Time Bandit Vulnerability (Total)

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    Hmm, yes and no (in my opinion!). There's a counter to a lot of those alphas; jammers, strong aro, reserving a piece with 3 models, etc. It's often hard to achieve but it's there, you know? Not sure there's one for a turn-1 gml alpha from a list built around Jazz or Anny or Druze, for example, other than raw good luck.

    I do totally agree that 400pt games dampens the alpha emphasis a lot though, it's a good point
     
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  5. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    There is, play camo spam, you're basically playing N3 no hacking interaction game.
     
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  6. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    A natural and existing counter-play to deployable repeaters and units physically moving into position with their on-board repeaters are mines from minelayers. A Guilang starts off very costly for a suicide mission, but to risk it against a mine before I'm even able to deploy the repeater is not a good idea at all. It's a bit funny how (forward deployed compared to the units you protect) minelayers are more expensive than most deployable repeater units.
    The issue here is that typically selecting minelayers, other than the comparatively costly Guilang, you have to make a choice at list building and anticipate the tactic of suicide deployers. Not that most factions have very high access to minelayers without making pretty serious compromises.

    Anyway. It's a bit of a subjective scale. The cheaper, less hackable, more forward deploying, and more indirect method you have of getting a repeater close to the miniature you need to kill the more viable the tactic becomes. Exactly where that point is depends on the player and the opponent and the factions involved. I do think we have a number of factions that places themselves quite far up the scale where this is concerned, though, and recently we added Bakunin to this small list of factions.
    Yes, "small" indicates my own stance on it.

    I do also note that there is a way to reduce the impact of this through taxes. If, like with Guilang, the repeater providing units costs SWC that is added on top of the hackers, it becomes increasingly unviable to over-focus on this as a tactic as even if you have access to Polaris, you'll still tend to be dead in the water without a couple of SWC guns. We see with Morans, however, that this is a very soft approach, though.
    Speaking of, Nomad players are probably hoping CB doesn't notice and Bulleteer them, I'm sure.
     
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  7. Th1nG

    Th1nG Active Member

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    First of all, thank you very much for the expertly written, and even more important on this platform here, nicely formulated, post. I think your analysis is spot on in regards to detecting both the properly balanced as well as maybe overperforming parts of the GML alpha strike strategy.

    A suggestion from my side, that only came up when reading your thoughts, is the following: could one potentially change the Reset wording to allow it to not only remove the targeting state, but to also act as a face-to-face to the guided missile attack? That would alter the math of the one-vs-one roll of the GML to make it less sure-fire, without completely defanging it. It would definitly devalue dodge in this situation, though.

    In general, I agree that a potential two-step solution, by both looking at the problematic repeater-flinging options and the damning math of the GML attack, slightly balancing both instead of really toning down one of them, is probably the most sensible path forward.
     
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  8. anubis

    anubis sarcastic exaggerator

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    This thread is honestly one of the best and most objectiv thing i read about the guided Meta in a long time. Can we agree to just link this Essay to the start of every discussion and end it right away before the carussel starts spinning again.


    Nomad player here: thats exactly what i hope for. I am fking tired of everyone and his mom wailing like a irish banshee about each and everything in the nomad rooster in each and every thread there is (just look into the PanO subforum, to see an actual example)
    Make morans more expensive. They are WAY to cheap. increase costs overall. limit their options. Cut units. Make guided either STUPIDLY EXPENSIVE or nerf the target state (just take away target state for each guided BS attack, to just throw one idea into the ring).
    Just take care that we all again start hating Avatar/Taigha and CA and tohaa again, like in the good ol´ days.
     
  9. StephanDahl

    StephanDahl Well-Known Member

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    I like the idea of using EVO hacking as a counterplay to guided missile attacks. It fits the fluff and gives more reason to bring EVOs, and lets EVOs act in ARO with more than Controlled Jump. Maybe remove the general BS+6 for guided missile attack (and the general TAG ECM-6), and generate a BS+3/-3 modifier from an EVO short / ARO skill, reusing the controlled jump interaction?
     
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  10. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    Upping the game points to "alleviate design constrictions for a better game" is something I have seen been purposed and done many times in my wargaming career and it usually does not fix any issues except bloating the game with more models.
     
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  11. anubis

    anubis sarcastic exaggerator

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    There are multiple options to nerf GML, and it seems to be discussed over and over and over again. I hope (and think) there will come a adjustement, and i hope it will come soon™.


    I made an equal expirience, but those systems never had any number of modell/unit restriction. I did not try a lot 400 point games (especially no serious ones, so @Triumph has the advantage of experience in here), I cannot tell if thats the way to go and the path to eternal joy and happiness.
     
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  12. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    We don't have that problem because of the 15 unit limit. The number of models doesn't increase at 400 points, what changes is there are fewer cheer leader and spam troops and more combat effective troops.

    If we played without combat group limitations then yes that'd be a problem.
     
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  13. Rejnhard

    Rejnhard Well-Known Member

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    Caledonians don't complain or do you not have any around? There are some factions for which 400p/15u is pretty rough.
     
  14. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Just to reiterate something I've talked about at length elsewhere; Forward Observer and Guided interaction is quite fine right now (for future reference: this season Forward Observer REMs have built-in Marksmanship). I hope they don't nerf Guided.

    Hell, I'm fine with Hacking and Guided interaction; it's the excessive repeater network that I've got an issue with - both in terms of Guided interaction and it elevates Hacking from being an area denial to hackable units to becoming a table denial tool. Keyword here being "excessive".
     
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  15. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    On topic, as I said on another thread, I am not sure if it is a problem of "a phase" Guided missile launchers in the previous edition passed through the following stages, "everything is new" nobody really bothers with them, "Discovery" players start fielding them and discussions about them start, "Predominance/ Outrage" players field them and now other players must deal with them essentially a new and disruptive tactic has gained dominance and people are upset about it, "Normalization" were players have discovered counters and Guided Missile Launchers become, yet another tool and finally "Obscurity" were the game upsetting element they bring in has waned and their prominence falls.

    When U-Turn was introduced another dance was seen were Guided Missile Launchers and EVOs increased and decreased in usage according to the others prominence, many Guided Missile Launchers created demand for EVOs usage, common EVOs usage created reduction in Guided Missile Launchers usage, decreased Guided missile Launcher Usage created decrease need for EVOs, Players noticing EVOs are not commonly fielded started bringing again Guided Missile Launcers.

    In general Guided Missile Launcher power is in a decreasing trend from first edition towards at least N3, I am unsure if the changes in N4 broke that trend, if Guided ammo in general is a problem now or as I said at the start we are in the "Predominance/ Outrage" phase of their thrend.

    Maybe Guided Ammo needs a protection Tweak, maybe EVO's getting a ECM-6 ARO is a solution, and it may make EVOs see a regular slot, but, it may create yet another Guided Missile Launcher/ EVO indefinite circle, maybe we simple deployment and Guided Ammo carriers elimination tactics is needed to go to the next phase.

    I honestly do not know, I was not good at playing against Guided Missile Launchers in the previous editions, but they were never common in my local meta, this time they are locally in the "Discovery phase" I think, I see them often but the casualties they do, to me at least, are never severe and I do not find it particularly difficult to deal with them, but they do get priority targeting.

    I have not fielded Guided Ammo myself so I am not sure how that would go.
     
  16. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    USARF and French are the problem factions where they struggle with it, but they struggle with everything so it's kind of a wash. Both sectorials are badly in need of a full overhaul and a roster expansion, they have the smallest rosters available.

    Lists move away from cheerleader and warband spam in general it's not just an effect on CHA. WB is running 1 or 2 monks instead of 5, SEF isn't spamming Taighas, I haven't seen anyone use a Digger outside of StarCo. Essentially everyone's lists do more teching up, and pure fireteams become more viable. Rather than playing a Grey leading 4 cheerleaders a full core of Greys is actually a viable option.

    The increased SWC also lets Caledonians dig deeper into Scotsguard, it becomes harder to ignore and walk past distant random camo markers when there's a greater propensity that they're hiding missile launchers under them.
     
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  17. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    I think it would be respectful to stay on topic, a new thread can be created for that.
     
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  18. AmPm

    AmPm Well-Known Member

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    At 400pts there are a lot of factions that get stuck into what they can build. I don't think I could make a remotely sensible DBS list at that point value for instance, I would have to force more expensive MI and low end TAGs vs other factions best of the best.

    That said, U-Turn should have come back ages ago. It helps to mitigate GML and adds counterplay. There should be a cycle of do I want to bring this or not, no different to MSV or Camo.
     
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  19. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    From experience they're fine. Being able to easily pure team helps them punch up (A lowly Brawler MSR is functionally BS15 vs an elite Karhu who can't pure team and is BS14 for example), and they have the ability to avoid face to face situations and equalize against high end enemies if they need to because as pertaining to this topic, GMLs+Hyper accurate pure team Pitchers cause problems.
     
  20. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    N3 sure had Guided as a thing, but it was very difficult to do as a main weapon. In part this was because Targeted didn't "stick", but also because spotlight had a -3 malus on the user so it was extra unreliable. Typically what you did in N3 was you'd drive a Pathfinder-equivalent or a Fugazi-equivalent up to the opponent and drop a Sniffer, and then use Sat-Lock with a Pathfinder-equivalent with penalties removed thanks to an EVO Device to induce a WIP 13 Targeted state on model or marker.
    Very difficult, very specific units to do it, but it worked decently as a low-risk weapon when opportunity presented itself. As you put it, I think the value of Sniffers were in the "Discovery phase" for the global community when CB killed it off at start of N4.

    Do test N4 Guided out a bit. It's worth it if only to get a feel for what the hell people are talking about.

    Around these parts Guided has moved past Discovery and Guided dynamics together with Bearpodes are dictating what is good and what is bad quite hard. If your list can't deal with those two threats you need to throw the list away and make a new one with more camo and BTS-save guns.
     
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