They are cute. Indeed. Cute things got me into the game x) I like PanO, I like WinterFor, but for playing... I feel it is a little sad. Only background keeps me with them. But they are mostly shelve garrison. Indeed. Other factions changed more than PanO. And may be CB “formula” of balance needs to be reworked? My verdict: PanO is about healthy economy, not about healthy army or education system (because of wip)
@Lady Numiria summed it up concisely, I'll elaborate a bit. PanO is very one-dimensional. They were always about shooting and shooting only, and with this being mainly a shooting game, they needed quite a few limitations to make up for it. Part of the reason for it was that back in N1 and N2 higher stats acted like tiebreakers, so PanO's average +1 BS over anything else was very powerful. But this advantage was removed from N3 onwards, and it sometimes feels like designers didn't get the memo, keeping old restrictions in place. No smoke is obvious. Back in the day MSV 2+ were few and far between, and with PanO BS the usual Smoke+MSV trick would be oppressive. But since then more and more factions get units with BS on par with comparable PanO units, and MSVs are widespread. And yet, if PanO wants to obstruct line of fire to advance, they have only Guarda de Assalto, which, while a very nice unit, is very suboptimal as Eclipse delivery tool. Low WIP is also obvious. It's a straightforward exchange for +1 BS, making PanO slightly worse at hacking, anti-camo, and - first and foremost - dealing with objectives. It's not as pronounced an issue, because it still gives most of the units WIP 13, with TAGs and some iconic units, like Fusiliers and ORCs, having to do with lower values. Regarding objectives, for me the solution was to start the game by applying PanO firepower liberally, only going for objectives when I was sure opposing army was on the back foot. This wasn't as easy to do in the age of horde lists, isn't as much of a problem now. Limited skill sets, both in faction as a whole, and on individual units. PanO units were always pretty specialised, and when you could count on them having an edge within their specialty, it could work. Not so much these days, when this edge is nonexistent. What's more, there's a lot of interesting skills and their combinations to which PanO simply doesn't have access, because reasons. There are some exceptions: MO was always more diverse, though it meant their units were always on the expensive side of things. Some SWF units introduced new options. Boring and/or overpriced characters. Not all of them, but most - especially Dire Foes - are jarring when compared to characters of other factions. Bipandra, Konstantinos, Quinn, Uma - they bring very little value to the faction. No Warbands - which ties to the one-dimensional PanO playstyle. Though Teutons - and previously Magisters - fit this role quite nicely, but again, without Smoke. Teutons could really use Eclipse grenades. There are many more issues to list in detail, but the summary is simple - PanO faction design is outdated, the game moved forward leaving the faction behind, and it feel like no designer has the heart for it to properly update PanO to fit N4 enviroment.
Except that all of that can be done elsewhere better.... I love my Azra'ils, but they are really easy to mod out assuming the enemy knows what they are doing. The perceived threat is the big thing with them.
I generally agree. PanO could definately use some moderation. If they update NCA next, I am hopeful for more Auxbots, Aquila Guard profiles with leadership skills, and more unique equipment. I hope more units also get wild parrots as well.
This is the list - No smoke - Low WIP - No more than a couple of skills for each base profile - No advanced skills/options outside Characters profiles - Expensive stuff only on HI (on top of them using the old math matrix) - Limited Fireteams - No Warbands - No pitcher - No hacking device plus - No impersonators or troops with bonus in infiltration or para dep zone How many factions apart Panoceania miss all these things ? Can you tell me the names of these factions ? :)
That is an entirely different question than the one I asked, and this was how many factions you think have access to Pitchers, Hacking Device Plus and Impersonators for PanO to be entitled to have such items, it is an entirely different discussion saying "everybody has smoke (not true), why can't PanO have smoke even if it is smoke that blocks everything" and "why doesn't PanO have Hacking device plus and Impersonators?".
To keep adding to this: Courage is rarer than any other faction by far. Dogged and nwi are basically unheard of outside of 2 characters. Lots of physical skills are fairly sparse too. Bonuses to dodge, dogged and nwi are pretty much non existant outside Teutons, boyg and few characters. Winterfor added a bunch on climb+ and super jump, but now its pretty concentrated into thereafter than spread around. We have no immunity, aside a few shock imm profiles, or bioimmunity. We also have extremely scarce courage relative to other factions, primarily regulated to tags and rems with few exceptions. Low quality tinbots. Not saying that specific issues here don't affect other factions in one way or another, but there is a weight of "no-no's" that restrict PanO from a lot of the game.
Have you tried to do the same for other factions and sectorials? When I started playing them properly last year, for example, it came to me as a shock that Invincibles not only are deprived from smoke, but also severely limited in visors both MSV 1 and 2, White banner has Smoke in one unit but other than a remote nobody else to properly exploit it. I adapted and have good results with both, but I think looking solely at a faction limits the understanding of the limitations other factions have.
If a faction has a hacking device plus, its got pitchers too. As for DZ exploitation, which I think was the broader point, most factions have something: Yu Jing: technically the liu xing though its just a +1 to his ph13 Ariadna: uxia, Margot and duroc, van zant Haqq: fidays Nomads: carlotta, hellcats, bran do castro CA: speculo, rasyat, greif ops Aleph: Andromeda Tohaa: greif ops, jaan staar, kiiutan imps O-12: Andromeda, Casanova This is not including troops that have a decent ph for combat jump either, just bonuses and skills as described earlier
Invincible have 5 MSV profiles vs Varuna's 2, Acon's 3 (all msv 1 now), MO's 4 (none of which have more than 2 armor and only dart has 2 effective wounds). While you only have 1 MSV2 unit in white banner, you have several MSV1 pieces and most of them have the ability to drop a template. You cannot fully utilize the smoke shoot to its fullest, true. But you still have a pocket full of tricks to use with it.
Thanks for this unfun/monotonous/poor perspective in a thread that feels a bit cherrypickingly "the grass is greener over there". Don't Ramah or OSSS miss most of that, too? How about subfactions that struggle with having a proper midfield unit? Or struggle with fielding 2 wound models? Or lacking bikes? Or a proper MSV + mimetism unit? Handwaving away Mimetism-6, Hidden Deployment, Forward Deployment, Auxbots, Albedo, Eclipse Grenades, Chain of Command etc. as "no advanced skills" because PanO lacks fringe skills like "parachutist deployment zone" or "hacking device plus" (how many factions have that?) doesn't feel honest when quite a few (sub)factions don't have these "boring" skills at all. Personally, I think it would help if the argument would focus more on what PanO and its sectorials actually struggle to do, and what makes them feel unfun. Envying the Azra'il haris while having Orc Feuerbach links, Karhu Feuerbach links, or simply the Swiss Guard, feels a bit lopsided.
Invincible has three MSV 1 profiles two on characters one on a REM, debatable if the weaponry carried by them is first rate, has two MSV 2 one on a REm and one on a single troop option, that admittedly has a MSR and is linkable, but it automatically makes the link team mixed. Varuna has indeed two MSVs one MSV 1 on Quinn who fills the same place as Lei Gong for cheaper in a cheaper link team (if you want it pure) open to debate if it is better or worse, and the dreaded Kamau Sniper, who while she has lost the cheapness of her N3 fireteam retains her lethality in a Kamau core, I will give you extra points for selecting a sectorial that has MSV2 locked in a sniper profile, but I think Bolts would be more comparable even if they "only" have MSV1. MO and visors is a strange affair, they work, they are just strange... Winterforce is were the most MSV flexibility is located at the moment, but I am just starting to experiment with them.
We shoot everything in the face extremely well, and everything else has to build off that. If you don’t want to lean into that, well… yeah.
Strange affair... interesting selection of words. Strange in a "let's make the black friar linkable except the MSR" kind of way? I think visors in MO are crap. The Crosier MSV has a spitfire. He's linkable and can be linked in a full bonus link, but the weapon of choice is sub optimal. The MSR profile would make much more sense. The Black Friars are one of the biggest enigmas of the game. Three profiles, only one not linkable. The only profile that can put that visor into good use. Why? He can't get full bonus from core linkability, in a best case scenario he's shooting at BS14, which is anything but OP. Any basic linkable infantry from any faction can get the same bonuses (bonii?) for a fraction of that price. Or have at least one decent MSR + MSV linkable option. The HRL Black Friar is kind of ok. But the HRL limited range puts it in immediate disadvantage against enemy snipers. I rather have the HRL BF unlinked and free to move to a good firing position and leave the MSR BF in a link. Konstantinos is overpriced and undergunned. Dart is a good profile for active turn hunting, but leave her in suppressive for reactive or she's probably dead. Not a good ARO option without SF, and she's rather pricey in a points hungry faction
Most of that list is accurate, but this one isn't. Pan-O has premium LI-MI units, not just HI. Croc Men, Karhu, Trinitarians etc there's alot of these. Pan-O isn't paying old taxes on their HI. In fact, Pan-O has been given some extremely aggressive and in some cases unexplained points discounts on their HI. Hospitallers during the N3 MO rework received an unexplained points discount, and in the N4 MO rework MagistersTeutons went from this: You can see by comparing the cheapest profiles they gained: 6-2 MOV Dodge +1" Terrain (Jungle) DA CCW +1 BS +1 WIP How much did this cost, nothing? Better than nothing they went down by 3 points to 19.
The new Magisteutons are great, no doubt about that. And they gained a few neat things, but they lost stealth. And stealth is a big deal for this kind of unit.
I'd take the old AVA6 Magisters with Cubes back in a heartbeat. At least they could pure Link and weren't doomed to be mutually exclusive between a Frankenstein of a Core, a Haris or a Lt option.
Yeah, I do always wonder what's up with that whenever I look through my Fireteams in NCA. Especially with the HRL being quite lethal to most targets you'd want MSV for anyway, and having Sixth Sense built in. The primary reason to take the Sniper is that it's one of the only anti-armour guns with a Visor in NCA, but if you're going to have to take it unlinked you may as well spring for the much better Aquila Guard with one of its rifles, or the other Black Friar profile with Albedo.
