Last time I personally checked, PanO had more BS15/14 units than the rest of the game combined. Other factions have to make heavy investments to match our shooting.
And I say "No." I did not go through all of them, but you can read an earlier post about why I think Szally is a bad example. I'll even copy it here for your convenience. Spoiler Szalamandra vs Dragao is the perfect example to show why PanO is more of a shooty army than Nomads. It is not about the +1 BS (though it is definitely not insignificant). It is all about the remote presence. "B-b-but it doesn't affect the FtF! It's not about shooting". It doesn't affect the roll, but it does affect the consequences of the roll, and thus whether you will decide to take the roll. Thanks to Remote Presence, when you get aro critted, or just brought low through attrition, Dragao has easier time to get back into shooting than Szally. Dragao risks less. So when presented with an unclear tactical situation, Dragao player risks less than Szally player, and would be punished less for being unlucky at shooting or misjudging their chances. In other words a Dragao player who easily defaults to "just shoot it dead with a TAG", will lose less (battles) than a Szally player who defaults as often to the same approach. And that is what makes Dragao (and PanO) shootier, not +1 BS. Being good at a thing is not only having good chances to succeed, but also taking less punishment in case you fail, which makes you more likely to actually do the thing. In this case - to shoot with the shooty army. I know, I was replying to another poster that actually asked that question. The post I was replying to was included in a quote box. Unless you have Hecaton muted maybe?
so you’re basically saying that because of the fact a bunch of TAGs and REMs have remote presence, it’s normal that PanO has: - barely serviceable engineers to save such TAGs / REMs (worsened by the following point) - by design more difficulty generating orders than other factions (worsened by the following two point) - lack, if not absence, of cheap troops - no Strategos - no Hacking device plus - no cheap warbands - no pitcher (except one model in SAA) - no eclipse grenades (except one launcher in SAA, not even grenades…) okay…
That's not how listbuilding in Infinity works. You don't get a cross-section of your faction's profiles. You pick the best ones.
Can this thread return to atleast tangentially talking about the daemonist or just cease to exist please.
There's also the point that PanO can lose a BS13 shooter and barely break a sweat. "Oh, you clipped my Nisse? Here's my Karhu/Vargar/Quinn/Uma/Gunnar, plus my ORC on BS14."
Are you just going to ignore the wip 15 engineers and burst 2 gizmokits? What about hacking defenses? Rem pres is great for covering a bad roll, it just too bad you've got terrible wip in the first place. Hope you can spare command tokens. You're bypassing a lot of the support to make your point here about support. Let's not forget smoke and white noise. Nomads can pick its battles. PanO has to engage every battle its presented with.
... and this is why I don't play vanilla nomads. Corregidor: The one true path. None of that bs in a better package.
I'm not necessarily saying that. Actually in another post down the line I said this: "Now, I'm not saying Nomads aren't stronger than PanO overall. I do not know that. PanO seems rather average now so it is possible. I'm just saying that a few high BS profiles do not a shooty army make. I'm also glad we moved from "Nomads are bullying CA" to "Nomads are bullying PanO". Cause the second one is at least plausible." All I'm saying that "being good at shooting" is more than BS value and mimetism modifier. And if you take everything into account PanO is significantly better at shooting than Nomads. They maybe be underpowered compared to Nomads (I do not know), good shooting may not be enough of an advantage to win tournaments ( I do not know). But I know that cherry picking a few profiles, ignoring context, opportunity costs and additional factors does not prove that Nomads are as good at shooting as PanO.
I love how there is arguing over three pages in this thread plus pages and pages of mathhammer and in the end kusanagi dies to a fcking auxiliar, together with one or two sisters of hers. On one hand i love this throwing around with numbers and percentual chance calculations (with 2 diggests after the decimal point! ) and on the other hand its a freakin game with dice that either hate or love you and wave ur precious statistics good bye last time a good player laughed about the odds of a bandit killing jazz through a enemy repeater jazz ended up as brain soup on the floor after 2 orders. Yes, calculating chances is important. Yes, pointing out unfair combinations is important aswell. Yes, nomads were, are and will always be the best faction of them all. But guys, you are smart enough to calculate the percent chance to hit enemy modells in any occasion (or at least you are able to fill out a formular calculating it for you) maybe you are also smart enough to use enemy rangebands to your favor...nless your tables look like a football field...
exactly Having 15 bs when you can just throw a smoke grenade and ignore completely, if not outright kill, such said trooper suddenly becomes less relevant. Now, what about an AP immuned and firewalled Suryat Missile Launcher with MSV1 in a pure fireteam covering your PanO objective? What can PanO do without spending half of their orders pool? Oh… you PanO don’t have eclipse grenades or WhiteNoise to do the same trick? Too bad for you… I can give 10 different tricks Nomads can use to suppress such said 15 BS trooper without spending half of their order pool. However, I’m not sure I can field a lot of tricks for PanO to suppress that Suryat… Even a sniper rifle Bolt in a pure fireteam will struggle pinning it down efficiently.
No, a few high BS profiles *do* a shooty army make, that's how Infinity works. When you can solve the problem of anyone poking their head up by shooting them, then you have a shooty army.
But is well equipped to do so. I rather have a reroll with 12 wip, than one chance with 15. Also a second uncouncious wound goes a long way to make a tag more recoverable. Not mentioning the fact that with +1BS you are somewhat less likely to need to repair. Again. All the stuff that Nomads get might be better than what PanO gets. PanO might be in the lower tier than Nomads right now. It is possible. But if you want to win with shooting, instead of white noising, backstabbing, hiding behind smoke and the like, then PanO will still be a significantly better fit.
She is an ok LT that is obvious, adds little to the synergy is kind of expensive and vulnerable to em/ hacking.
Smoke shooting is part of shooting. It drastically swings odds. It also allows for avoiding poor firefights. This allows for you to put shooting back in your favor, engage in other methods of attack or weaken it by attacking other parts of a fireteam. When you have quality gunfighters and access to these tools, you will find you have really good shooting because you get to dictate the firefights and engage normally as needed.
In the end 95%+ casualties in infinity are caused by shooting. And all armies are able to do that, and have to be able to do that. My argument is that an army who has to bring a hacker, or smoke thrower, set up a combo, and then shoot someone, is not shooty in the same way that an army which has an easier time just popping out of total cover and blasting the opposition. If you stretch the definition enough then Haqq is a shooty army, because fiday blasting your troops out of cover in the back has some really good odds for his cost. "Just fine" =/= "as good as".
