They are good at shooting, they are not PanO levels of shooting, Kuzanagi would face an uphill battle against a Kamau or a Nisse for example, Szalamander is a dear TAG to me, but not the best out there especially not by PanO standards, in general do not be impressed by mimetism because most factions have either MSV that counter it, links that make it irrelevant, both, or really cheap disposable troops with templates.
Just how many factions have good MSV to counter it? Really not as good as PanO Kusanagi is BS14 on par with most of PanO and has Mim-6 when factions bring msv2 they don't field it on every unit and that's even if they can field MSV2 which alot of people can't or have one really crappy one.
Are you seriously gonna tell me the Szalamandra isn't equivalent to the dragão? Sure, the dragão has 1 more BS, but it doesn't carry a hacker defender and costs 1 point more. Like, for real, my dude? Nomads are, right now, kinda... odd. Like, they do everything relatively well. I don't agree with the notion that they're top tier, because CA exists and (IN MY OPINION) Ariadna will always be one of the sleeper hits of this game. But it does bother me that nomads basically get everyone's tools and nobody gets nomads' tools.
Exactly the problem isn't that they are S+ tier at everything its that they can do just about everything at least relatively well. Nomads have the most faction flexibility that I've seen. Every other faction is limited by faction identity almost except for nomads who push past with almost every update they get.
Doesn't get repaired from second level of unconsciousness, doesn't get to get a reroll because the dice hate you, doesn't have the privilege to get back to life with a reset because the pilot out there just died, doesn't have PH13 gismokit, her pilot is S1, has BS 15. Szalamander has better BTS and her pilot is a WIP 13 0 BTS killer hacker, nice but vulnerable.
Buddy all of those aren't reasons why the Dragos is leagues better at shooting. You are pulling tangential stats trying to support a point that nomads can't even compete with panO in shooting and you're just flat wrong.
But that's my bloody point! The two tags are equivalent. They each have different strengths and different weaknesses, and that's good. I would not trade the Szaly for a Dragão. However, the Dragão has undeniable PanO design, and the Szaly has undeniable nomads design. They're similar, but not the same. The Daemonist is a bloody PanO profile in nomads. Just like both the Kriza Boracs and the Gator are YuJing profiles in nomads. This is the thing that bothers me. It's not 'a nomad twist in a common profile' it's just a profile from another faction in nomads. Bloody hell. Again, not game breaker. Shouldn't be removed from the faction. Won't change anything. But bloody hell, mates, come on.
Kusanagi in a pure Reverand Core vs. Karhu Feuerbach in a mixed Core: That is not an "uphill battle," that is a slaughter. Nisse Sniper in a Haris fairs better, but not by much: For those curious, the fight is actually pretty close if the Nisse is in a pure Core, but A: no one actually does that because it's way too damn expensive, and B: Kusanagi is still favored: Additionally, unlike any of these opponents, she can lose a Wound and keep going. If we take the Fireteam bonuses away (simulating Vanilla vs. Vanilla) all these numbers get way better for her because going from B5 to B4 is not nearly as impactful as dropping from B2 to B1. Kusanagi Spitfire in a full Reverend Core is effectively Burst 5 BS 17 with Mim-6. The math doesn't lie. She's absolutely one of the best shooters in the entire game.
This is the kind of argument I dislike. Kusanagi in a full core is a minimum of 127 points and occupies full 5 slots out of 15, so it's a third of your list in both points and list slots. And are you really going to argue that a trooper in the active shouldn't have an advantage? That's just silly, mate. We can and should argue faction identity and whether or not the nomads are getting too many tools, but come on, let's not go overboard and start making up these strawman arguments.
Neither is her pilot been a killer hacker making her better at shooting, so by default Dragaos is better at shooting and more survivable, but more vulnerable to hacking.
The claim was that Kusanagi would struggle vs. a Karhu or Nisse ARO. I displayed why that is not the case. That's not a Strawman, that is me literally addressing the argument. The full conversation goes a bit deeper, sure, but that wasn't the point of my post. And without going super deep into that topic, I reiterate: she shoots as good or better than everything in PanO that is not a TAG or the Swiss Guard. You can get different results if you give the opposing model various combinations of MSV and Mimetism (as Joan or specific MSV2/Mim-3 models now beat her, for example), but the point still stands. Especially in a faction with easy access to White Noise to block off problematic MSV2 models anyways. She's a good shooter. Very good. She outshoots the Anathematic, a unit notorious for being a great solo attack piece (though obviously without his Camo state, but again; not the point of the post). She's good.
No, she's not good. Backed by 4 other models, costing 127 points, she's that good. At 127, that fireteam is costing the same as the avatar, so yeah, it shooting a bit better than the avatar is fine. arguing that Kusanagi is busted in a full link is like arguing the Kriza boracs is busted in a full link. It's not. It's a full link. You can argue that full links shouldn't be that powerful to begin with, but that's a wholly different argument that doesn't affect nomads in specific, but the whole game.
The argument was that nomads couldn't compete with pan0 shooting and the dragon is better by 1 BS. You are dancing around this by pointing out tangential stats that don't have anything to do with the original point.
Assuming both Kusanagi and a Nisse sniper are in good range and in cover, Kusanagi would roll 4 dice hitting on 11s and the Nisse 1 hitting on 13s, reversed it would be 2 on 13 vs 1 on 11, odds become worse if Nisse is with HMG and active or if Kusanagi gets outranged, not impossible with a spitfire. Now if full pure fireteams of equal value are involved, at 145 points not much change but I doubt Kusanagi fares better, Nisse hit on 16 she hits on 14. The argument is they are not better, and they are not, to reach our basic Hi BS values Nomads go to TAGs or Kusanagi for example.
I mean, whether that's actually the case for Nomads is obviously a matter of contention, but regardless, if there was an unequivocal best faction in the game it wouldn't be a bad thing to point it out.
And they seem to get updates quite frequently, too... And frankly, it's better to be A tier at everything than S tier at one thing and B tier at everything else. And Nomads are S tier at hacking, T1 defense, and seemingly A tier at everything else.
You don't necessarily need high BS values to be good at shooting if you have mimetism -6 or whatever. But you should take a look at the post breaking down the math again, he's way ahead of you.
Please quote me where I argued that Kusanagi is only busted in a full link; I specifically stated that she is one of the best solo shooters, and that she gets even more ridiculous when Linked (something not every shooter at her caliber is capable of doing). You accuse me of strawmanning arguments, but you're the one strawmanning mine. But lets put some math down: let's put Ms. Kusanagi (as a solo!) up against TR Atalanta, one of the scariest snipers in the game, and then see how a Karhu (again, as a solo!) does in the same situation: So pretty bad, but Kusanagi technically still has a greater chance to knock Atalanta unconscious than to be killed herself. Which is something, I guess? Anyways lets try out the Karhu Feuerbach, one of the most common solo attack pieces that PanO fields: ... Oh. Well that's just awful. And it gets a lot worse if you put her up against more common ARO pieces such as a TR bot; if the ARO pieces doesn't have MSV2, it's just completely hosed. For posterity: Solo Kusangi vs. Solo Nisse: Solo Nisse MSR vs. Solo Kusanagi (assuming good range; Kusanagi gets worse if outranged, but this is why we don't leave things outside of Total Cover when enemies have a Long Range Attack Piece): Solo Nisse HMG vs. Solo Kusanagi (again assuming good range): The Nisse's combination of MSV2 and Mim-3 let them overpower her in Reactive, though notably with her 2 wounds she has less of a chance to be taken out of the fight outright. Also for posterity: vs. a TR Bot with Marksmanship: Nisse HMG: Kusanagi Spitfire: Both models have situations where they excel; Kusanagi will perform better against anything that is not specifically MSV2, while Nisse can leverage their MSV2 and Mimetism 1 to counter Mim-6 models quite effectively. Overall the shooting is quite comparable, which was my original point: she shoots as good or better than PanO models overall. Neither Fireteam is 145 points because the Nisse can pick up a Machinist while Kusanagi has access to Cenobites; they come out closer to the mid 130's. Nisse Sniper w/ Pure Core shooting at Kusanagi w/ Pure Core: These odds are actually better than in the Solo vs. Solo Scenario above, because mathwise the Nisse going from B2 to B3 is not as impactful as Kusanagi going from B1 to B2. There's a separate discussion about the viability of a Pure Nisse Core vs. a Pure Reverend Core but I'll leave that alone for now.
I will present control groups for comparison. Spitfire Joan, who is the counterpart idol of Kusanagi in PanO, roll 4 dice hitting 12s against Nisse. If the opponent is Karhu, which has MSV L1, Karhu will hit Kusanagi on 10s while Joan on 13s. Without MSV, Kusanagi gets hit on 7s. To get the cheapest full core, Kusanagi needs 129 pt (3 cenobites and SO Moira) while Joan needs 166 (4 cheapest hospitallers). If I take full core with a doctor, HMG, and a hacker with pure bonus, it gets 167 to 200. Of course there is difference between 2W, 1W, armor, and other many variables, but purely comparing on shooting face to face. ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 5 1 KUSANAGI (Lieutenant) Spitfire, Zapper / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (1.5 | 41) CENOBITE Heavy Rocket Launcher, Light Shotgun / Heavy Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (1.5 | 27) MOTHER AGATHA Vulkan Shotgun / Pistol, EXP CC Weapon. (0 | 38) REVEREND CUSTODIER (Hacker, Hacking Device Plus) Combi Rifle, Pitcher ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 31) REVEREND MOIRA Heavy Machine Gun, Zapper / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (1.5 | 30) 5 SWC | 167 Points Open in Infinity Army ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 5 JOAN OF ARC v2 (Lieutenant) Spitfire, Nanopulser / Pistol, EXP CC Weapon. (1 | 50) KNIGHT HOSPITALLER Heavy Machine Gun / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (1.5 | 37) KNIGHT HOSPITALLER (Doctor) Combi Rifle ( | MediKit) / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 33) DE FERSEN Spitfire / Pistol, AP + Shock CC Weapon. (1.5 | 51) KNIGHT HOSPITALLER Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 29) 4 SWC | 200 Points Open in Infinity Army
One does not care about mimentism -6 when they are equipped with MSV2, I am not sure what values the post breaking down the math has, though an active shooter should have a reasonable advantage, but as I illustrated above all these are situational to who is were and how, assuming everything equal a simple scenario of Kusanagi vs a Nisse Nisse has a 2 points BS advantage and its all down on the volume of dice.
