Haha, i totally forgot the rokots. At least they are from a different sectorial. I was refering to the Military Orders Crosiers
They are not the same though and, in my opinion, splitting the Order sergeants in 3 and finally diversify the profiles instead of having 3 different utility directions under one profile was the correct choice.
Crosier and OS could be made slightly more different, but it's not that big of an issue, all things considered. On a complete side note, I love how Diablos look. I'll be making a postapo exoskeleton for larping later this year, and they'll be one of the main inspirations.
I'm fine with Riots being a thing, very Nomad, don't really want to build an army around them though. The relative lack of other good options for a quality team in N4 Bakunin aside from Riots and that ridiculous Space Wolf mercenary in Moderators is what kept me to NCA this edition, I tend to prefer my Bakunin being mostly Moderator Corps and Observance for the consistent aesthetic. I'll agree with most that the new Corregidor guys look neat. It's good to see the "guards" side of CJC for once instead of always the "gangs"!
If you think a 10-20 or even 30-50% higher price for a metal game product is not justified, you are not paying attention to prices for metal, energy, labor, or shipping. Those things became much, much more expensive than your/our groceries or rent did. I work in metals: steel and aluminum, also brass and copper, occasionally precious. Metal prices doubled or -tripled- since the start of the pandemic. Spoiler: See here. https://www.bls.gov/regions/mid-atlantic/data/producerpriceindexmetals_us_table.htm Meanwhile labor prices rose at least much as your rent. And we all know what happened with European energy costs (what, doubled? tripled?) and global fuel prices. Then there’s container shipping prices. Working at a game company during the pandemic, we watched container prices go from $6,000 per shipment to $60,000. The company I worked for managed to survive but that shipping cost totally destroyed my friend’s terrain company. CB definitely have to deal with that for all their printed material, packaging, etc. So yeah, your 11-13% consumer inflation does not match the cost increases of game production. We’re lucky CB didn’t more than double their prices, which would have been justified given the costs. Oh, and buying the rules for 40 euros a few years ago does not fund ongoing development or support from multiple staff members, including Army 7 app development and hosting, Faqs, new faction support, and ITS development. Paying a premium for the minis pays for that. If you want to be offended at paying 10-20% more for minis, maybe play with just the paper rules you bought once three years ago, and just don’t use anything newer that you didn't pay for, like the current Army app, the linkteam rules, any updated factions, ITS 13 or 14, the FAQs., etc. etc.
Sad to hear the inflation got to you too. But it is getting to all of us, I'm afraid, CB included. We can either bear with it, or look for greener pastures. Which would mean limit our hobby expenses in this case, agree to the fact we won't be getting all the models and supplies we'd like. Or in extreme cases, cut it completely, and soldier on with what we have already. Collecting stuff is expensive. Always was. As far as I can see, that's the way things are.
From France, I have the feeling that Corvus Belli miniatures have reached the price level of Rackham miniatures, not necessarily in price level (because I don't remember exactly what the prices are, but it should be around 15-20e), but in the percentage it takes in the purchasing power it feels the same. The advantage of low prices in Spain is over.
So this is why a box A cost 30,- and box B with barly a mini more is double the price. Box B is so much chunkier that thy have double the amount of material in it. Than its the damn shields, I guess. Maybe pewter has gone up 100 % but not from february to march. For my understanding 60,- € is very expansive for 4 minis, chunky or not. I politliy avoid to point out that 150 $ a year is not much to help a company (but fortunatly you do some public releations #price raise for free). I pay a way lot more than you over the year to help out CB and get some nice minis in return. So please avoid this kind of lecture. I do not remember that I ask for an advice. Maybe you could do me the favour and don´t give me one? I am old enough to decide myself how I play and how I spend my money. Wise words.
I'm sure doubling the cost of boxes (especially when they put useless tinbots instead of troopers) would work wonders on sale numbers. Riiight. These famous frequent rules updates, FAQs, support and quality control I've been hearing about. Worth paying premium, uhuh Too bad they took away unit profiles from paper rules a few years ago, so you actually can't do that anymore.
I just wish to say that all things considered, Infinity is really well supported, rules wise. It is a testament to the game that the top 3 winners of Cancon 2023 used factions that were in desperate need of new models and new rules (Tohaa, Acon, and ISS). I definitely want them to continue updating the retired factions, but am glad they are still viable.
If memory serve, the last 4 human sized miniatures box was the Teutonic Knights one (please, correct me if I'm wrong, I did not check) for about 55 € (with one weapon option for the Indigo). When was it? 2021 (after the Military Order Pack, so around May maybe)? Was this price different at the time? If not, it's less than 10% difference, right? (I suck at percentage, sorry). In this case, I'm not surprised one year and a half latter, a box of 4 miniatures is 60 € considering what is happening. Morat Expansion Pack Alpha is about 48 € for 3 minis. Nomads Booster Pack Beta is about 45 € for 3 minis. Morat Fireteam Pack is about 50 € for 3,5 minis (if you consider a Tinbot is half a Morat) It's not really different to 60 € for 4 miniatures. Everything is costly nowadays.
You made a poorly informed and misleading statement about pricing of a metal game product. Having better info about both the metals and games industries’ cost increases, I corrected you so that other folks here could read it. Don’t actually care how you in particular spend your money. As soon as someone starts whining about paying for some elements of a game that has free rules, army app, forum, and tournament system, that person has proven their opinion less than useful. I’ll still shoot down your incorrect statements though.
The idea that we are supposed to be subsidizing the costs of production for the company and that those who complain about being priced out of being a customer of the company should be silenced and "corrected" is hilarious. I guess the Kickstarter mentality got to some people really badly.
Dunno what do you mean by "Kickstarter mentality", but the rest of it... from an economical point of view, it is almost gospel. As in: A company makes and markets a product. At a price that will allow them to sustain the company. Customers buy the product. Company gets the money for the product. They can afford to repeat step 1. Cross any of the points above, and the company is out of business. Because the money stops flowing. Also, first principle of the market economy: goods (or services) are worth as much as you are able to sell them for. If you consider the current CB prices to be too high for you (and no-one is going to ask whether you can't affod these prices, or you simply feel they are excessively high, and you refuse to pay these purely on principle), don't buy their product. If enough people share your view and vote with their wallet, that's point 2 on the list above. The company will be out of business, because there won't be customer base willing to pay them. And the company costs money to operate.
Related here, I decided not to get Lei Gong because I can't justify paying $22 for a single mini, especially a size 2, that has mediocre rules and mediocre looking. If one of those two was better, I might have. Right now I have other games calling to me and CB is not likely to be coming out with much YJ this year.
Exactly what I meant above, @Space Ranger - you have decided a certain product isn't worth the money the manufacturer is asking for it. You're not going to buy it at this price. Fullstop. Your money, your call.
If you are going to continue this discussion, please do so in a civil manner and do not attack each other, thanks.
This is exactly wrong. Infinity/CB is an example of how a business can be sustainable and continue to support a game -without- Kickstarter, or even without Patreon or other non-product payment systems. . @Errhile summarized the real model well. If readers are interested in why being cheap about 20-80 euros/dollars a year in increased prices if you play Infinity and want to keep playing it is shortsighted, and what an -actual- KS vs retail model looks like, read these spoilers: Spoiler: Sustainable game biz TLDR: Want Infinity to stick around? Pay prices equivalent to market rate, and consider production costs and what it takes to keep the company in business. Want to just abandon this game because you're frustrated about a 10-20% increase in cost? Sure, move to another game/company that either has actually-exploitative pricing (40K, X wing, etc.), or a company with lower prices but which won't survive (most other minis games over the last 20 years), go right ahead. Those who can do the math and want to keep the company that supports our game in business will remain right here, thanks. Corvus Belli’s main Infinity business is a very good example of a company that made solid choices for ongoing retail game production, sales, and support (other than having a LOT of SKUs, which is a situation they are slowly consolidating their way out of). Having fully-owned production and design of minis and IP in-house, a hybrid direct/distributor retail sales model that’s decently global, support and marketing that -is- actually global, decent social media presence with their own forum not dependent on individual social channels, and still having room for experimentation with multiple game lines with associated products, etc. etc… these are all solid and responsible business choices. In an industry full of companies who had good products but failed to sustain them (Rackham looking at you, even FASA etc.) or sell-out juggernauts with ongoing titles that are almost explicitly exploitative (GW, Wizards), CB really stands out. That’s part of why I feel comfortable investing my retail purchase money in Infinity as a product, both one-time minis and ongoing system and community. The need for some return of money to the company that matches their investment in order to have a sustainable supported product is pretty self-evident, or you can do the math if you really love detail. It is also why complaining about spending an extra few euros a year on game products is ridiculous, if you participate in it frequently. If you spend 20 to 400 hours a year playing Infinity, building models, etc. then 40-60 euros a box, buying 2 to 8 boxes a year, isn’t much cost per hour of enjoyment. Given inflation in metals and shipping costs vs. consumer inflation and the rise of wages in most places, the increase in CB’s costs is higher than the increase in their customers’. See spoiler in my post above if you want detail on that. Even if you buy a LOT of CB stuff so that amount is higher for you, you participate even more probably so your increased cost per hour probably even goes down, while their increased cost of production per unit stays the same. Yes you want a decent return on your expenditure, ie good amount of toys -and- good amount of support (free rules, tourney seasons etc.). But never, ever forget that the second part of that equation exists, has value, and requires payment from customers. And when you think about that payment cost, consider their cost as well before you whine about the price. Spoiler: Actual KS model and problems An actual “KS model” (or “crowdfunding addiction” to name the negative side of it) is the exact opposite of what Camo Token just suggested: It involves -not- supporting a product as an ongoing concern and -not- putting development into a continuing product line sold through retail, but instead going from product to separate product, extracting max payment for each and carefully limiting time and money investment in them, with a solid finish date after which no more work on that thing happens, it is not produced anymore, and it becomes unavailable on purpose (to boost rarity and KS pledges). This is totally unlike producing models that you then sell for years or decades, with a ton of free support, tools, and community -following- that sale even. Kickstarter’s a hell of a drug for game companies. Getting off of it involves hard work to develop a business and sales model that can support your company, and finding a way to fund front-loading development and production. Traditional product development is HARD, as is getting established with retail distributors, direct sales, or the balanced hybrid you need to be survivable nowadays. Same goes for establishing and supporting an ongoing player base. Very hard grindy stuff full of either luck or unpaid work, compared to selling some marketing, a decent demo version for reviewers, and then -maybe- doing the hard “final 20% of the 80/20 equation” after you’ve got a pile of KS cash to do it. All that annoying sticky last work needed to close a distribution deal, to make a rules set really balanced, to get the graphic design to be enjoyable, etc etc takes as much time as the other 80%… and it’s what a lot of KS-addicted companies fail to do well. Some KS/retail hybrid companies do exist. They are usually companies who -did- do the hard work/finishing up part well, and they realized that given all that work they might as well do retail too and make the money off the hard parts of actually supporting a product well. It is still super hard for them to make the transition. Even though they are playing around with KS for new products (Defiance, War Crow Etc.), CB’s core Infinity line is totally -not- crowdfunded and is quite well insulated from the risks that are involved in their crowdfunded projects.
Bold words of someone that choose to "defend" a company against people that express their opinion obout some high pricing. And no, I don´t whine here ... keep your shooting and presenting your metal statistics so that we poor people that refuse to make a marketing analyses and cost/productive calculation before we dare to complain about prices can inform us. I buy enough from CB to not feel bad while pointing out that a given product is a bit spicy in pricing.
