‘6p Auxbot - (Tactical Awareness)Vulcan Shotgun, Para CC weapon.’ ‘orc with a 4p (tinbot: +1 Regular Order)’ ‘Kirpal singh - Added to NCA, Varuna, SWF. Changes: combat jump (+3)…’ ‘LT Stephen Rao - Complete rework: Added to NCA, Varuna, SWF…’ since when was literally two characters regarded as all of them? Currently list of marksmanship: attached to Auxbot - only individual troopers can access this. Added to knights, an extremely costly unit designed only to function in a haris. - added to Uma through her non FTO option. added to Richard Quinn, the only character who can be added to a core. Considering the proposed fireteam options, he changes very little, as he is less BS and has no mimetism and a lot less utility than most other core troops. His character benefit is that he costs less. So I ask, how do we expect to reach a unanimous agreement of a change list when people actively subvert the main post in nitpicking side conversations with incorrect information, instead of working together as a uniform where everyone is after the same ultimate goal. ‘hey alpha strike, we need locusts in NCA because…’
We're not going to reach consensus, most likely. I consider detailed changelists with specific elements to be a poor vehicle for suggestions as a result of this. Another problem with the format is the density of data; despite a solid attempt at reading your post, the Singh change is the only one of those examples I'd already spotted. Boiling down problems into some widely agreed-upon concerns tends to get more results, at least in this forum. As for why Locusts are needed in NCA, they're the only forward-deployed Specialists in the faction outside of a single Character, Uma, who is not sufficient to cover the Sectorial's button-pushing capability in more objective-intensive missions (Unmasking being a golden example). In addition, they're the only anti-materiel CC outside of the terrible Machinist who also isn't a single Character, and vital for missions like Looting and Sabotaging that otherwise would be lost out the gate if the enemy snipes Shona with an Impersonator. They're certainly a unit in need of some reconsideration, and in the running for Infinity's worst Skirmisher, but they are almost essential in certain missions and matchups for NCA as it stands. Removing them in their current form would require redundant access to at least solid CC (thanks to AC2s hitting back now the Machinist is highly unlikely to score) and either a speedy and mobile Specialist deploying in the DZ or another standard Skirmisher.
I agree with @SpectralOwl on this, you won't get a consensus in a forum enviroment. But it's a good way to get feedback from a wider community to get back to the drawing board. Recent statistics show that PanO does about average and isn't in need of a power buff, so the reworks should be more focused on internal balance and moving units sideways, than on straight up increasing their power level. Maybe working from the bottom up would work better, introducing smaller changes, until units and sectorials work as they should.
Of course they are poor vehicle for change when you choose to cycle instead of using the car I have provided. I think the problem lies within the mentality of players such as yourself. It comes across that you struggle to envision the situation as a whole and even if you could, you don’t know what you want and can’t even be bothered to put in the effort unless it immediately represents your own beliefs. Which is interesting as despite immediately taking to contrasting my post, in direct thought in regards to particular problems, you come up with exactly the same mentality of what pertains to that problem and a similar notion of resolution. I Gave NCA access to better drop troops and infiltrators, Singh and Stephen Rao, and enhanced Uma in her role. Auxbot usage will help how ‘fast’ troops are and able to specialise them to the missions that we struggle with without building an entire reliance on characters themselves And the orcs achieve a similar role for our punchy fireteams. How can we expect Corvus beli to put in the work if we don’t have some commitment to the cause.
@AlphaStrike , I am trying to provide both feedback on your suggestion method and providing a little of my own, by my admission biased, information as an example of my experience with the faction. I have seen dozens of threads like this amount to nothing while a simple and plainly stated, community-wide perception of a unit as ineffective or gameplay element as unfun quite often leads to change. I participate in these balance discussions to help foster debate, learn about the game and get people talking about PanO in the near-total absence of community leaders, not to cast down people trying to get a conversation started, but insulting my attempts to help is not making me well disposed to your arguments. I find NCA to be actually quite capable as it stands, with notable exceptions of its bad matchups against Morans and Hacking-skew lists from factions that get Hackers it can't reasonably beat and its poor performance in the most aggressively objective-heavy lists. I really think all NCA needs is a Locust Forward Observer profile and a buff to the Hexa Killer Hacker that can let it punish overly-aggressive Hacking Areas like it did in N3. Not being pushed out of the Hacking game opens up REM and HI-heavy lists that can easily solve the speed problem with NCA's generous Fireteams, opening up more Fusilier Cores to let solo pieces shine or ORC Haris teams for a mobile deathball- NCA's internal balance is among the best in the game if you don't have to deal with the Hacking problem. "Nice-to-haves" would include more Auxilia profiles, finally linking that inexplicably-excluded Black Friar Sniper and an NCA-specific flavour of ORC (Veteran is a popular guess, and a very useful one). Oh, and almost every faction could do with having the Grenade Launcher ranges fixed.
I was thinking about what you said about NCA and I thought of a simple fix: Add AVA 2 or 3 Trinitarians to NCA. It's fluffy as NCA is the home of Neo Vatican. It gives NCA a much needed unhackable infiltrating specialist. Locust would not be so isolated and have some support with the minelayer profiles. It allows that model box to NOT only be for a single sectorial. (It's rare for CB to limit models so much). It seems like a Win Win. Thoughts?
It certainly works for a minimum-effort, lowest impact change, which are very often the best. Really clever placement of that unit would even alleviate the Locust's pronounced weakness to template trading. They'd almost push the Locust out of a job altogether though; Locusts are somehow more expensive than a TO Camo Infiltrator with the same loadout, and all they really offer in exchange is some (admittedly very solid) mid-range weaponry and Hacking access. Definitely a unit that needs some help in its own right. I'm hoping for a non-MO solution though, I like Sectorials because of the cohesive visuals and themes and all the crossover stuff really cramps the style, especially when it's needed to cover mission roles.
I like the idea of Trinitarians in NCA, it'd certainly work, and would reinforce the theme of Church - despite having a separate force - being very much intertwined with the fabric of PanO society and its military. It'd also be in lockstep with changes on Bakunin. Humans looking to religion in times of crisis? Some degree of unit sharing is inevitable in a faction with five sectorials, and I'd argue that such sharing is a good thing, for both fluff and game mechanics. It's true that it'd make Locusts somewhat pressed out of the job. I really think they should get Hidden Deployment (without Camo) to both protect them somewhat, and to differentiate them from Nokken more. Another solution would be to give NCA access to Dasyus; they already use some OSS units, and wider access to Aleph's toys wouldn't be much of a stretch. And Dasyus are expensive enough to let Locusts still be a viable option.
NCA is surprisingly light on Church related units despite it been one of the active seats of power. In general NCA needs a rework, but they stand their ground quite well so they can wait till they get their pass through.
Being the seat of the NeoVatican doesn’t necessarily mean lots of MO units. The Hounds of God make sense as anti-infiltration units, as do the Swiss Guards who aren’t actually MO… and with the Hospitallers already having a home in SWF, that’s one of the few other units that would make sense.
Knights of Santiago of Neoterra, please. I think it wouldnt hurt, but it would be another nice HI to choose from. And trinitarians... I'd also prefer a few tweaks to Locusts or even forward deployment Hexas.
Knights of Santiago don't really fit the sectorial, they're marines, NCA is a planetary defence force. KotHS might fit it better, but the army has no shortage of good - and expensive - HI. What I'd do, aside from giving Locusts some tweaks and midfield support, would be to 1) beef Auxilia, by giving them better Auxbots (they could use some buff themselves, to not be so damn bland), and 2) allow other REMs - Pathfinders, Clippers, and Fugazi - to link with select fireteams. But this is something I'd want PanO to do in general - make better use of its Remotes.
I really love the concept of your post. And I also think, as many, that PanO needs a rework. I’m not saying they should be buffed. I also don’t think they should be like other Factions with HD+, smokes, eclipse etc. But there is one thing among all that really bothers me with PanO: that complete uselessness of several troopers. The army lists are too stiff (Varuna the worst by far). For that I definitely agree with your proposed changes on the FT of Varuna. They need to get back to previous Core configuration. That’s the very least CB needs to do to make this list a bit funnier, to at least have a reason to deploy at least one Orc troopers… Another big gripe I have is the Hospitallers. It’s impossible to field a Pure core of HI in MO unless you field Joan, De Fersen, and 3 Hospitallers. That is an extremely expensive core, with no ARO trooper and no tool beside their BS. How in hell MO doesn’t have the capability to field the most fearsome HI core of the game? Why Invincible army core of ShangJi have the best of the best HI core in which you can blend all Infinity has to offer while MO has… Nothing… Here again the Hospitallers FT should be more flexible. Adding a Knight of Justice counting as Hospitallers would be the easiest change. If not, at least have an ARO trooper with a ML/HRL. Maybe have order sergeants counting as Hospitallers? I don’t know but I think it’s extremely uninspiring to have MO that should have the best trained soldiers with the best equipment being totally unable to deploy a pure Core that makes sense. Anyway, I don’t want a more powerful PanO, I don’t specially want fancy tools (I wouldn’t say no to a Smoke grenade though…), I don’t even want WB. I would only love to have a good reason to field Orcs, Hospitallers, Nokken, KoJ, etc, and stop having to always field the same standard ass Kamau or Fusilier Core for Varuna and Croisier/Teuton core for MO, with only variations in specialists / support troops depending on the mission. Edit: and I’ll add one thing that also bothers me with PanO with regards to their fluff: they have too bad lieutenants. How come PanO, military superpower with specialised training have no decent commanders with Strategos? Why Varuna LT has to be so bad? Why no +1 Command Token or +1 LT order (beside the knight commander)?
It's absolutely possible to field a pure Hospitaller Core. It will lack defensive heavy weapons, Tinbots, or Tactical Awareness, but it can have embedded Doctor, or a pointman with shotgun deployed slightly forward. It'll also be cheaper than an Invincible fireteam, while being significantly better in CC. I agree it's slightly lower on HI pain train power level, but it should be that way, YJ should have the edge when it comes to HI. Lack of heavy weapons can be somewhat alleviated by Multi weapons, for example by using Hawkins, who provides some additional range with Multi capability for a very reasonable price. The deal with Hospitallers - and ORCs, btw - is that they're not flashy, but they're perfectly fine workhorses. They can't rely anymore on "HI with heavy weapon plus 4 cheap grunts" tactic, but right now there are exactly two sectorials which still can do it, with MAF being balanced by the cost of its cheerleaders (I still think Kaitoks are pushing the power creep edge some) and Volkolak/Rokot being a balance mistake in my opinion. This means that there's still space for PanO basic HI to work, they're decent and reasonably priced. Sure, would be nice to see a Hospitaller with Feuerbach or HRL, but its lack doesn't invalidate the units; it's a fireteam you want push forward, into CQB and CC, and it doesn't need to rely on this additional +2 BS to do so.
"blunt but reliable, that is our moto" Orc troops in memes. In reality the shock a full Orc fireteam brings is quite considerable especially if you manage to have them in the enemy deployment zone, a BS 23 boarding shotgun is quite oppressive.
Sure, it's oppresive exactly same as Zuyong/Jannisaries/ fireteam. On top of "a lot of things is oprresive when it gets to enemy DZ".
yes, always this people standing behind me holding a gun to my head, forcing me to just use the units they tell me to. I also don´t dare to pick any other units than the one leading to the highest chance of easy winning instead of picking units I like.
Easy winning? A pure core of Kamau doesn't ensure victory, a Core of croisier doesn't either. If you think that then you and your opponents should reassess your understanding of the game.
True, but I have never done so with Zuyong, Ill try it next time I field Invincible Army, though admittedly they have better options to reach the enemies deployment zone with HI than Neoterra does.
Invincible Core has Tactical Awareness and better Tinbots, so it'll definitely has easier time reaching this far. On the other hand, PanO has a slightly better options to clear the way for such a team. Nothing does, really. Kamau MSR + Fusiliers was the epitome of defense before fireteam update, and I'd argue that it's still very good right now, if slighly easier to bypass. ORCs do have something going for them when compared to Kamau - greatly increased durability.
