They lack the Veteran Troop classification, but by fluff the Shang Ji armour is the next-generation Yu Jing armour being issued to the most veteran Zuyong regiments. Considering several Zuyong profiles come with TacAware, and Shang Ji are so expensive for a minor stat upgrade, spreading TacAware across the board would be both fluffy and give those other profiles a chance of actually seeing play.
With the risk of seeming a bit over-reaching; I don't see people even discussing the FO profile so I'm not sure just TacAware is enough. I kinda think each profile needs enough special stuff to transform a fireteam on their own - they're expensive enough that grabbing more than two of them is kinda silly. What makes Jisus good and what had that profile in particular completely shift people's opinion on Shangers in general isn't TacAware; it's TacAware, Tinbot and an uncommon and great gun on the same profile. HRL is 2 of 3, FO is 1 of 3, and the remaining Shangers are 0 of 3. Of course, it doesn't have to be specifically that set, CodeOne had Regeneration on one of the profile and that can absolutely be transformative for a PH 14 unit (e.g. imagine Jisus as LT but replace Tinbot with Regen), but then you start getting a lot less safe with regards to external balance.
FO is the most basic specialist skill that allows like 2 classified objectives without any other utility. Paramedic and hacker get their own COs, possibly even more than FO, plus they offer good utility skills on top of that. Durable hacker with tinbot on top is very good. If you somehow get isolated you would get 2 resets thanks to TA. Considering pure core paramedic still gets +1bs with one guy down, +3 range and base 13 bs with b2. For 14ph guys thats like 2% to miss 14% to die and 84% to revive. And you would do it for TA order. I'd say that on par with tinbot in terms of usefull, coupled with TA they would both get 2 of 3 in your classification. 14PH lt with regen and good AP gun could be problematic with external balance? Asawira I'm looking at you...
It's also that you need to look at the faction in general. In this faction having a Tinbot is almost trivial, externally people expect Tinboted Fireteams when facing Yu Jing sectorials, so the value in having Tinbots on more Shang-Ji is letting you form the teams without having Jisus everywhere so to speak. Sure, a Hacker with Tinbot is going to be a decent addition for vanilla, but we're still talking about a WIP 13 Hacker for 46 points whose main competency is still shooting people. Yes, variation in good profile is directly translatable into power, but it's more soft translation than adding a new and unique strong combination. Regeneration would be adding such a new potential combination.
As much as tac aware would be cool, I think it would make them way too expensive! I hardly take them now. Do you think even with it, would anyone take anything other than AP HMG? Has anyone ever taken a basic Shang Ji? Edit, if I'm wishing, I'd like them to make their movement 6-4. This would be like how they first were originally. They were fast HI compared to regular Invincibles.
I used the FO Shang as a third man for a Ye Mao haris. Giving them order efficency. 40 pts is a lot, the cheapest SWC free TA option. He can be a nice additon to a fireteam, bringing another TA order and is a specialist, but in most cases he´s to expensive. That also means a TA paramedic would make him less useful. The HRL Shang is a nice second long range attack option and more a good ARO piece. A B2 HRL on a HI is scary. The downside here is, you have to seek cover, once you lost the first wound, because you have to save the precious TA order. Okay. The holy trinity of Shang is clear, what about the other profiles? TA would make everyone better, but more pricey. The blank Shang, unlike many other troop types, will never be used. Not in IA, not in WB and surly not in Vanilla. The point difference to the FO is 4 pts. That make 3 for the TA, I guess. Even with TA this profile is overshadowed by the specialst profiles. The tinbot version could change that a bit. In IA the better option is to take the tinbot/TA Zuyong. MR and some better stats will be worth the higher cost. So the Hacker, currently at 41 pt could gain TA and will be 44 pts and therefore a bit pricey. But TA on a Hacker could be very useful. HMG/tinbot is a dead profile, five pts more and you get a jesus. It should be removed. As mentioned above the paramedic for 41 pts could get sligthly more useful over the FO. I would like to see a B2 medkit so it can attempt to heal out of fireteam boni or in vanilla. Don´t what its worth pointwise, maybe one. Lt with MR could be a thing. Don´t know if CB don´t want to combine TA and Lt. Anyway I would merge both MR profiles and keep the Lt option (maybe withot TA and some nice gimmik instead, +1 CT for example) just in case. HMG Lt. saves you 0,5 SWC. Throw something out of your list, take jesus, gain AP and TA. Anyone ever used this Lt.? I would not do. If I want an aggressive Lt. therea are better options in both sectorials and vanilla.
Shang Mark does really well in Armoury and similar missions where Shang Jisus becomes a bit of a liability because of the closer range bands. Although he's about to be outclassed hard by Bixie.
I'm not so sure on that with armory specifically, she doesn't have shock, #2, and as good of armor. But msv helps a lot when smoke is thrown in followed by whatever. Zapper is good but doesn't wound. The big thing is the CC. She definitely edges out over then.
I think just straight up setting all of them up with TacAware and Tinbot Firewall -6, preferably bumping them to Veteran Troopers as befits both their future and current gear and their fluff, is a good and proper solution - this would make the FO and HRL profiles 2 points more expensive and all the other profiles 5 points more expensive. They will be the point man of the link, regardless what gun or role they buy into. Being more special status I think it's also appropriate to reduce the number of profiles; non-specialist Multi Rifles and the plain HMG are a bit superfluous. This also means a Jisus LT profile. Probably won't see table time but still. I don't think increased B on Paramedic is entirely appropriate for Yu Jing. Paramedics were made great in N4, but this whole doctoring business isn't really the faction's forte. - If we start poking on Zuyong we start poking on the question of what Zuyong are meant to be; are they meant to be the next generation "elite" heavy infantry or are they meant to be next generation "line infantry" heavy infantry - i.e. quality or cheap. By extent this also means you need to call into question what Invincible Army is meant to be; it's undeniable that you need orders in Infinity to do anything and with a cheapest profile of 26 points you're not going to get a lot of orders. Granted, of course, that in particular IA changes shape a lot if you bump points limit up to 400 The question instead is whether to keep trying to cram the army into "limited insertion" style lists - which is an incredibly volatile list type for a faction with such low ARM and BTS on their 30-ish point units. Naturally this messes with Dahshat some as well, but I think that's not as huge an issue as it might sound as the space they occupy in Dahshat isn't all that cramped and regardless of direction I think it'll suit that sectorial. I'd first like to acknowledge two things; Haidao got the cheap heavy infantry almost right, and Haidao are not generally selected for this quality since the fireteam selection gets in the way. Zuyong as more of an elite infantry; Zuyong are already kind of geared to be in this role, but as mentioned they are pretty much samey as most other heavy infantry of the faction. I'd suggest that an interesting direction to take Zuyong here would be to focus on the armour itself as the delivery method; there is a profile with automedikit (Regeneration) and simply making this standard issue on all Zuyong, increasing PH by 1 to make it slightly more useful, and slimming the profiles down to a more focused level would probably do wonders to separate designs; again I'd suggest that the basic guns were all removed in favour of these being on specialists, e.g. FO Multi Rifle, Paramedic BSG, TacAware Combis. TacAware I think is appropriate here and being the junior to Shangers I think it's appropriate to have lower and more specialized access to it as you'd expect in other factions. The stand-out profile here would be a TacAware plain HMG with Regeneration at 39 points, at 10 points cheaper than Jisus this competes for a spot using a bit more staying power potential without relying on paramedics, allowing a Shanger or two bring profiles other than the HMG. Zuyong as more of a line infantry; just plain swap with Haidao. 21 points for a plain combi NWI heavy infantry that forms the backbone of the sectorial's fireteams, trading courage and terrain skill for Number 2. Haidao by comparison seem to be crying out for more of the Zuyong's general... gist. I'm thinking specifically the BTS. As an aside I do think Haidao would be appropriate with MSV2 on all profiles. Being more line infantry, Zuyong have a more appropriate spread of equipment options, however, I question whether TacAware or Tinbots would remain appropriate with this philosophy; a similar profile set to Zhanshi, sans Multi Sniper, is probably more appropriate in this case meaning a hacker profile instead of the tacaware and tinbot profiles - skills and gear that the officers, veterans, and NCOs get to have! The issue here is of course that you significantly slow down certain types of lists by removing a bunch of tacaware and perhaps the price would still be too high to make them a common component of IA and Yu Jing.
Yep, they deserve "Veteran Troop". They are too elite for still counting as "line". I don´t think the tinbot should be on every profile, I still would put it only on Jesus and Lt. option, maybe hacker too. Maybe a thing for an new unit (a YJ Rindak) but who would not like a B3 medkit ;-) I still would like to see them as an upgraded Zhanshi, with power armour to gain, speed, protection and targeting assistance. 1 W with NWI and Imm.Shock. Maybe even go down to BS12 - that will clearly put them apart from the Shang Ji. I also would get rid of the regeneration thing. This is something CB took over from the first Zuyong profiles. I do not see why the line HI should have something fancy like this. On the other hand I would upgrade the Haidao to real 2 W and give them BTS. This would result in cheap line HI with some potent fillers. Specialst role on Haidao and pointmen role for the Shangs. Haidao also should get the Invincible keyword.
Late to the party but I sure wish there was a reason to use the Multi Rifle Zuyong as Multi Rifle Zuyong seeing as he is a profile with a model. Right now he is just subbing for Korkram until I get and paint the model, he used to moonlight as a Wu Ming with Multi + LGL until they were nerfed.
I use mine as Combi/TA because a) there is only one combi and b) he has the right pose for that. Only a few people in my meta even realise that he carrys a multi
Not really playing Vanilla a lot, but IA having a bunch of HI is just amazing. Imho, Zuyongs best IA HI in terms of point efficency. Having a 15 orders HI pain train in the first group lead by Bixie or SJhmg or them together is a pain. Taking into mind that we still have second group with zhencha or something else. But yeah a bit of variety in speciak skills would be interesting.
Depends what you mean by efficiency. Shang Jisus combines the abilities of two lesser HI on top of getting that sweet AP ammo. Zuyongs are cheap, sure, but if you plan on running without a Shang Ji in there as your anchor, you're probably going to have to invest in another Zuyong just for the tinbot, and not to mention that you'll still be lacking in template coverage. If you're looking to just cram cheap, armoured bodies into a list, sure, I suppose you could call Zuyongs efficient. But in terms of what optimization you get for those points, Shang Jisus and Shang Paul really put in a huge amount of value.
Yea, ShangJi AP+Shock HMG is a good tool to press through bout everything as a fireteam pointman. But I personlly like to save up somw points on him and take Zuyong HMG. Thats way i mnge to get t orders for my pain train. And also, fill in Zhencha or something else to operate in second group with at least 4 regulr orders. Reminds me of good times bck when 20 orders were a thing. Also, zuyongs with breaker pistols actually can cuz some troubles to a bear.
Well, talking for myself, I'd say the reason not to take a SJ is because if you take them, that leaves you with no points for other things. If I take a SJ I may not be able to take Liu Xing, Bixie, or something else that can be helpful for a mission or you just like playing. Shang Ji's are great but it can be a little boring taking them all of the time. Speaking as the old man here, I really miss having something like Domaru. They are even better than they used to be. I liked having a dedicated assault unit like them. I had high hopes for the Hulang but he ended up being an overly expensive roadblock that hardly causes a bump. Unfortunately if they did make something like for YJ now, they would have to make it different from Domaru because they wouldn't want a pure copy. They would probably be pretty bad I think. I'd love to see HI Shaolin. Just take the Shaolin, almost as they are, but slap on some Heavy Armor. ARM3/BTS3, Move 6-2, 2 Wounds, various template and CC weapons, smoke, done. To me they they can even stay Irregular-Impetuous. But I'd prefer for Regular-Frenzy lol.
Yu Jing lacks a cheap HI (we have Zuyong and Jujak) that has good stats, but is still dirt cheap. A rework of Wu Ming could make them frenzy, without the fancy CC skills. IdK if that will take the pts on Zuyong level. Speaking of Zuyong. Further in this thread were several ideas to make them more different from Shang Ji. I still prefer the 1 W + NWI BS 12 upgraded Zhanshi version. Yeah but not as a Domaru like, core linkable HI, more the WB HI. I would also love to see an enhanced dodge here or even a dodge -3!
Hey, long time no see, guys! (yeah, I know it's been a while and then some, long story) as to the HI: Zuyong are supposed to be the "cheap enough to give every Zanshi power armor" guys. That said, the Invincible Army is supposed to spend a lot of time and effort training them, so TacWare isn't unreasonable to have on some profiles. I'm coming at this from mostly playing IA and not vanilla recently. Probably need to find a way to shave another point or two off of each profile, so that a Fireteam is 6-10pts cheaper. Sadly, that probably means the +1B pistols go. Haidao are naval troops, but closer to Marines or Seabees than SEALs. So they're not super stats, more different sets of abilities than a Zuyong suit. Where's their BTS, they're wearing space suits FFS? I can make arguments either way for their movement, but if they're supposed to be interoperating with Zuyong they need to be 6-2, or else they get left behind really quickly. Seriously, Zuyong stats with unique weapons/skills. To the point that we should say to new players "if you want a 'Zuyong' with X skill or weapon, that's what the Haidao are for." And maybe let them count as Zuyongs for fireteam purity rules, but that can be negotiable for fluff/balance reasons. I might drop their Red Fury profile entirely, how many people take it? Wu Ming are violent criminals whose combat skills make them too valuable to turn into zombies, but whose role in combat means that they need the armor of the old Invincibles to survive long enough to do their job. That's the old standard HI profile: 4-4 move, ARM4 BTS3. Dodge(+1") optional, can be fluffed away as their suits being old and outdated in terms of speed compared to current tech, and too expensive to upgrade. Given that they are assault troops in the "breach and clear the room" sense, they should have more close range equipment, as well as some D-charges and Stun Grenades. Trade the HMG for a Spitfire. Keep the Multi+LGL, and maybe add smoke launcher to that one, because that's your utility profile, it has a gun to do everything. Probably drop the HRL to a Flammenspeer, and add a Blitzen+LSG profile for the trifecta of disposable launchers. Forward Deployment or Mechanized Deployment would help make up for their shorter range. Shang Ji are supposed to be the "next generation advanced power armor" guys, so they should be better than ORCs or MB or Janissaries. I think they're suffering from "Toni Macayana Syndrome," where the Shang Jisus profile means that the HMG and HMG LT profiles just don't get taken. Sadly, that probably means that Shang Jisus needs to be dialed back a bit, ideally just losing the AP rounds to bring it down to 47 points. Jujak are "repurposed civilian personal protective equipment" given flamethrowers because the suit couldn't care less about the heat. Those are the troops that I'd give the current Haidao 1W+NWI profile to.
Welcome back! I thought right away "hey Section 9 is back!" The only thing I disagree on is Jujak. I like them but they just need a little more to set them apart. I think most want Immunity (continuous damage) and Vulcan Shotguns.
