ZVZ issue.

The question is not about the declaring the ARO from the other side of the map.
It mostly goes to all ZvZ/White Noise stuff and interaction with it.
Lof has very clear wording, how you can draw line of fire, there is nothing sad about the visibility conditions.

Here is the example, how you have to resovle this :
Active player coordinate order 4 models - move. One of the models (spearhead) in in white noise zone.
Can Reactive Atalanta (or other MSV unit) declare a BS attack against trooper in White Noise Zone?

 

The Reactive Player must declare AROs for all eligible Troopers, Models or Markers immediately after the Active Player declares his Entire Order or the first Short Skill of his Order.

I cannot react to a unit i cannot see, cause the unit does not give me a legal ARO. Or do I misread that?

I am granted the option to ARO, i declare my ARO and the Target of it. I cannot declare ARO on units I am not allowed to declare ARO

 

Why should she get any if there is no valid target to react to?

edit.: damn, i see the point in the column of the ARO activasion:

• An enemy Trooper activates within its Line of Fire (LoF).

edit 2: and then there is:

• Troopers cannot draw LoF into, through, or out of a Zero Visibility Zone.

So, there is no LoF to draw, the enemy does not activate in LoF

 

In the same way you resolve Stealth


If Atalanta can see any other model activated by the same order, Atalanta CAN declare ARO against an Albedo/WN model.
But, if said model DOES NOT "break his cover" (exit WN zone or declare Attck against Atalanta) then the ARO becomes an Idle.

 

The she gets an ARO to the ones she is able to react to. As quoted above she cannot react to a unit that doesnt give an ARO (at this point of the order), and if she idles she also cannot react to the unit ZVZ cause she already had the option to ARO.

The Reactive Player must declare AROs for all eligible Models or Markers immediately after the Active Player declares his Entire Order or the first Short Skill of his Order

She cannot wait for a unit she does not know its there (meaning: does not give the option to ARO)

edit:
@tox Your argument sounds logic to me, RAW.
But mine does aswell....
i can relate to the confusion

edit 2.:
i think i got it:
she sees a unit outside ZVZ, so she can declare immediately after the Active Player declares the first Short Skill of his Order for example ARO BS Attack against the Unit in ZVZ and can hope for that unit to "reveal".....
Wow.... thats so stupid

 

In a Coordinated Order, the "not-Spearhead" troopers can still BS Attack at B1.

 

also opens the option to just keep walking past one of the highest ARO threats there is. That opens some tactical options to either walk by or get rid of atalanta.

They can, the Spearhead is not necessary to see the target. But i guess in this special scenario the Spearhead is the biggest threat (meaning: a non MSV Unit in a White Noice field) which is forced to shoot due to "all have to execute the same order against the same target". If the Spearhead is no threat u still can target him but he has to walk out of ZVZ to reveal himself.


feels amazingly unintuitive non the less.

 

You don't even need ZVZ for this. After faq 1.2 and @ijw rulings regarding this issue, trooper can declare BS attack from behind a building against trooper that is in total cover.

 

The issue you're having with this is not an issue with the rules but one of rules interpretation. You have essentially allowed someone in your meta to make the argument that each rule that has exceptions have to explicitly state that it has exceptions, and oh boy are you guys in for a rough ride with that way of reading the rules.

 

The whole situation about LoF is kinda intresing and we want some clarification on that. So in the future we have universal understanding for that.

 

I think you've set the bar way too high for an FAQ or even an answer on this*.

As has been pointed out, the rules for Zero Visibility Zone says you may not draw LOF through it without MSV. I think that your options are essentially to either accept that this applies to rules that may not necessarily call this out ahead of time (such as ARO) or that you have to make a house rule that resolves this in a way that's clear to your group. Just be ready to make a lot of house rules to really basic things.

* IJW was the only one who regularly engaged with the community

 

I mean, there's no issue with rules clarity here. The FAQ is unambiguous. It is the clarification from the rules team. I don't know what other clarification someone could want.

There is definitely an issue with the accessibility of the FAQ. It totally rewrites the Order Expenditure Sequence but the old OES is still the one on the wiki, which is where everyone goes for the rules. It's absolutely to be expected that players will get confused, and understandably upset when they discover that the basics of how orders work is semi-secretly different than what the wiki says. But that's an accessibility issue, not a clarity issue. Once made aware of the FAQ, nobody should have any trouble knowing that you can't declare an ARO if you have no ZoC, no hacking area, and no LoF due to a ZVZ.

There's a rumour that there will be a new FAQ soon now that @HellLois is back, so it's possible that the OES could get rewritten again. But I think it's more likely they'll stick with the "check ARO opportunity at declaration, check ARO requirements at resolution" paradigm, and just clarify some of the remaining problems (like the peripheral baiting trick). Whatever they do, for the love of god I hope they finally update the wiki.

Edit: Ninja'd in the best possible way - the new OES is on the wiki now!