And condemn Caliban for not being deploy never. Just a more expensive SAS. Jayth needs to be something like a Shas WB. Take away MSV1 and EM mines, lower the cost at 18 main profile, make it Impetous, give it Eclipse and is like a Shas counterpart of Daturazzi. It is usable in Vainilla but normaly outclassed by Datu, great in SEF due being able to give smoke to some characters in a truly Shasvastii of dealing with things. Sargosh needs to cost 26 at max, being dogged or Bioinmunnity, without MSV1 and Multi, and carrying something fresh in SEF, perhaps a K1 combi. Frenzy or Impetuous as well.
The best solution would be to cut down AVA in Vanilla more than it already is. Move a bunch of the characters to just their sectorials, cut back on Mercenary options, etc.
All of these changes are hypothetical anyways. That said, with my hypothetical changes it would still be an excellent and unique shooter with the msv spitfire, an amazing engineer AND an amazing CoC option. Losing Protheion does nothing to curb how good they are and giving it to Jayth lets them actually fulfill a great niche within shas and makes them worth spending points on.
I'm not actually sure about that. As a vainilla player, if he don't carry Protheion, perhaps I will be running the usual MedTec aside from Caliban. Is a good Engineer, sure, but just medtec is better as a versatility specialist. MSV spitfire is a profile that I I never will carry if I dont have protheion. 38 1.5 for just a camo is a bad Sombra of Corregidor...
Everyone plays differently, I'd agree Dr. Worm is a better "pure" specialist but sometimes I want something that starts up the table for that same function. I've never used the Spitfire caliban to CC. That's just not a factor in why I'm taking that specific profile. It's also not a factor in why I take the CoC profile or the Engineer personally. I love that Protheion is there and abuse it to hell but it's not the factor in why I choose that profile. Regarding being a bad Sombra, I don't rate the red fury version very highly at all so I think it's a bad comparison to begin with. The MSV caliban makes an amazing camo hunter in ways that the sombra just can't. If they get into a firefight with each other the sombra is just going to vanish.
Protheion has won me games with the caliban. The fact he can bulk up to 3 wounds then sit on an objective in supressive fire has cinched me many 3rd turn wins. I would not like to see the caliban lose it. Jayth on the other hand I've never touched. And I wouldn't touch them with the changes suggested here either. So I can't really give an opinion on them. I just dislike the idea of taking protheion away from the Caliban.
I agree protheion is amazing, which is why I'd want the Jayth to get it to make them relevant. But we have to acknowledge that part of why they're irrelevant is the fact that caliban exist in the current state and are superior in every way. Losing msv1 would also give jayth a hefty points discount and allow them to link with Messer to take advantage of white noise. The next thing is helping them get out of the dz & into cc with 6-2 move. If all that happened for jayth I'd heavily consider them in a close quarters haris. You could pull off the same bulk up & suppress tactic with mimetism-6.
Jayth suffer the usual issue of being expensive 1 w infantry. If CB doesn't want to change their price, then it just needs to give them a niche. Giving Jayth Eclipse Smoke would give them a set role and provide another utility for Shas. Giving them regular smoke grenades might be even better, but that could break the sectorial balance. Either way, them having some type of smoke would probably be enough.
I totally agree that Anvil is the ideal role for this guy. The utility of Berserk would hinge pretty hard on the cost of that skill. If its more than like 2 points max I don't think its worth it for him. I'm much more in the Total Immunity camp, or even hacking resistance. Or give him the whole hog, making him the god of all anvils but like restrict him to 4-2 MOV. Hard disagree. I think I'd personally enjoy the game more with Vanilla gone, which I'm saying as almost strictly a vanilla player. But taking everyones toys away, while it may have some impact on balance, will have a lot of impact on peoples overall enjoyment and perception of the game. This is the way. Way more AVA restrictions. Lots of AVA 1. Some of the more efficient versions of stuff in sectorial only. The Caliban is the best example I can think of for this. God, running a CoC and Engineer in vanilla would be my go to every time. But having to pick one is a big concession in favor of playing SEF. If the AVA was two I don't think I'd ever be tempted into Shasvasti again. All from switching one little number from 2 to 1 or vice versa. I dunno, it's kind of good that there is a unit type (smoke warband) that this sectorial does not get access to. Would I play a 18 point Jayth warband with smoke? Yes. Is it necessarily a good thing for SEF to get easy and impetuous smoke? Not really. Not to mention CA getting easy eclipse. Coming from Tohaa I can attest to how this changes a faction drastically. For Jayths I personally would mostly like to see them trade some of their stats and gear for a price cut, and then add impetuous to that sweet as fuck pit patrol. Lets me relive the preta mines days somewhat...
All the new releases focus on sectorials. Typically I see vanilla played by more experienced players who have the breadth of collection to make it meaningful.
This. I think most new player start with sectorials (and should). Because it's a lot easier to build list for (both in term of listbuilding and in term of purchases).
Nearly every new player who has started infinity in my meta over the past 2 years did so by looking at vanilla code one factions first. They didn't necessarily buy into and play vanilla but it was the initial hook. Removing it would be a really bad idea based on my personal experience. I agree that starting with a sectorial makes the most sense if you go straight to N4 but code one is vanilla only. The transition from code one to vanilla is pretty easy and most of my new players buy into a sectorial quickly after. But it doesn't change the fact that vanilla was what did the initial introduction at the most basic level and that's important enough of a reason to never remove it as an option. I'd LOVE to see more sectorials get the Spiral treatment where the AVA restrictions are very tight and the best profiles aren't available in Vanilla. But getting rid of it entirely is nonsense in my opinion.
Most of the new players I've seen also start with a sectorial. However, removing vanilla is a hard no for me. I would probably jump ship if that happened, much like I have a friend who abandoned Infinity after uprising (don't blame him). Tighter AVA restrictions is the way to go to keep vanilla armies from overperforming. Also, sectorials should have tradeoffs, the only problem is in many of them the tradeoff is bigger than what you actually win by playing them.
Most of our new players go straight into a sectorial. Nobody plays Code ONE. We just take them straight into N4.
Every meta works differently, I've used both to great effect. Code One has brought people to our group that I've never met before and wouldn't have reached otherwise. In those situations I'm going to use what they're comfortable with. When it comes to getting new people into the game the there isnt a right or wrong, just playing in ways that continue to ignite their interest.
I really think that the idea of scrubbing vanilla armies is horrific. You don't really get to arbitrate over which playstyle is more interesting or thematic or enjoyable for other players - personally I tend towards sectorials but I really love the playstyle of vanilla too, it's great. Da RedOne is right - the best way to balance vanilla is AVA and unit/loadout exclusivity for sectorials. AVA1 taighas for vanilla would have been a way better rebalance for CA than 6pt imetrons imo. Unfortunately CB seem a bit reluctant to apply these tools at present (except, y'know, trinitarians for some reason!).
There need to be a lot more Sectorial only profiles or even whole troops unavailable to Vanilla, both for balance and to reduce bloat. Pretty sure that is the case for more Vanilla armies than just CA. Another wasted opportunity is the opposite way. Some things should only exist in Vanilla, but not in Sectorials. CA is about the only Faction where that happens (Aspects) outside of Mercs. No one really wants Vanilla gone, but it's somehow almost impossible to balance at this point.
Thinking back to the great 30-player 5-gamer I attended a few weeks ago - the top ten was Varuna, then Corregidor, Kosmo (who beat me hard in my last game), Shas, Kosmo again, NCA, Yu Jing, Mo, Spiral, and my O12. (We played Rescue, Firefight, Frostbyte, Supremacy and Capture & Protect.) So 2 out of 10 vanilla in the top ten. I don't think, since the CA rebalance, that I'm half as worried about vanilla-sectorial balance anymore. Nomads and Yu Jing are still top class alongside CA, of course, but there are lots of sectorials that can do work.
