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Semi annual TAG thread

Discussion in 'Nomads' started by karush, Aug 4, 2022.

  1. karush

    karush Well-Known Member

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    Howdy folks,

    With the Army update I figured I'd throw out my two cents on nomad TAGs once again.

    General Note: CB, there are 4 TAGs (and the lizard) you sell or plan to sell that take a guts check when they are hit by a rifle or pistol, and they are all nomad TAGs, please fix that it's embarrassing when my armor 8 (11 in cover) Mech in suppression ducks because a fusilier got a lucky hit. Not even causing a wound but a lucky hit.

    TAG by TAG thoughts:
    Gator: can't wait to use them. Tougher to kill in melee than most TAGs and I love the EM CCW which can end an assassination run with a good dice roll. And that mine dispenser... there will be some sad fireteams facing that. Don't forget your fire team options in corregidor, it can bring it's own engineer in a wild cat.

    Salamander: likely still my favorite TAG, rolling five dice to shoot is fun. Still wan't it to be 1.5 SWC like the Zeta, Dragoes, Overdron, Bultrak, Yan Huo (not a TAG but sets a precedence that TAG guns are not necessarily more SWC). Just feels weird being the single most expensive HRMC without the benefit of NCO or LT... and now with the bultrak having that and being cheaper SWC.

    Gecko: no notes other than courage please. Don't forget the BS damage is +2 not plus +1 like every other TAG, so enjoy the power 16 blitzen and panzerfaust and power 15 chain rifle.

    Iguana: a great TAG for trolling with that repeater, properly supported no one will every try to hack it and throwing white noise through it awesome. Wish it had an AP spitfire option like otherTAGs with an HMG profile. Fun fact, only TAG currently sold that does not have specialist pilot/operator.

    Lizard: you will have a special place in my heart, but Gator largely has you beat. Still, a budget TAG that will deliver pain for when you are on a points budget.

    Have fun y'all.
     
  2. burlesford

    burlesford Sheet guy

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    You really need to let this go, man. You've been posting it as a "bug" in the army app thread, which means it's gotten to the point where it's annoying. I think after all this time of you being the only one complaining about this single thing and it not going away, it's pretty clear this is an intentional design feature. So please, make your peace with it. Everyone else already has. Nomads have enough going for them in order for this to not be a big deal.
     
  3. Ugin

    Ugin Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    Congrats, we're not the only faction with TAGs who lack Courage, since (not Agamemnon)Gorgos and Triphammer also lack it.

    Furthermore, our TAG Pilots cossetting their TAGs since they are too expensive and need extra care, and looking for cover asap when minor damage alarm rings, seems quite acceptable and enjoyable, fluffwise.

    So, my answer would be No, we don't need any 'fixation' for our TAGs being Courage-less.
     
    #3 Ugin, Aug 6, 2022
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2022
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  4. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    Nomads don't get a lot of the courage rule which seems fair to me
     
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  5. TenNoBushi

    TenNoBushi Well-Known Member

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    Because it has Religious Troop :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:
     
  6. Ugin

    Ugin Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    Whoopsy daisy!
     
  7. LeGweg

    LeGweg Lucky dice roller

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    Gator: This is a really nice profile, but I don't understand why CJC get another profile when older sectorials such as ISS/Bakunin are let alone. Of course, mine dispenser + CC capabilities are nice, but do they emphasize the idea over "the" hacking faction of the game ? I'd rather see either a more thematic TAG or a unit in another faction.

    Salamander: I like that they put a high BTS on this unit + KHD on pilot. But hey, we cannot miss the HRMC. Really nice looking fig and she fits neatly in TJC, it's definitely also my favorite TAG.

    Gecko: 3 STR on a 50-ish point model is awesome. I really like the resilience they bring in midfield. Otherwise, they feel more like heavy HI than TAG.

    Iguana: Repeater + Pilot evacuation really brings something different. I'd like more TAG designed as this one, with really unique features and changing the way you play them. The repeater on your TAG playing Nomads is great.

    Lizard: See you later, alliGATOR.

    Overall, I think our TAGs are quite good. Not by their own stats but by the availability of great units to support them.

    I'd really love to see a TAG with Hacking Device, if it has to happen, Nomads is the perfect place to see this. I often imagine it as a big super-computer in back of the DZ: low movement capabilites (4-2 ?), high-level Hacking (programs buffs on different loadouts, 14+WIP, 6+ BTS) and low firepower. Maybe something with a pitcher ? That would be a great opportunity to use the silhouette of the Maghariba guard :)
     
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  8. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Psst! Gorgos and Triphammer ;)
     
  9. karush

    karush Well-Known Member

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    Show me where they sell the Gorgos or Triphammer on their store.

    Yes I purposefully don't count the discontinued TAG, in a discontinued faction. For some reason I just think it did not get as much beta testing time.

    Also I did not count the kickstarter TAG for much the same reason.
     
    #9 karush, Aug 10, 2022
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2022
  10. karush

    karush Well-Known Member

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    In corregidor alone we have courageous Light Infantry, Medium Infantry, all the heavy infantry, skirmishers, and war band. The only place corregidor lacks courage is their TAGs. That is just one sectorial, and we have plenty more courage and religious in our other sectorials.
     
  11. karush

    karush Well-Known Member

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    Agamemnon has religious.

    As for fluff, Literally our TAGs are bought cheap and then upgraded. Several are noted to be cheap and easy to repair. The gecko in particular is "dirt cheap" as stated on page 132 of the N4 core book. Also further supporting this trend is page 28 where it notes that old pan-o tags require "minimal maintenence" to be effective warmachines and immediately cites the reptile series as an example. Also on the same page it cites the reptile series was recalled due to a design flaw and then sold by the contractor to the nomads. This page supports that 1) reptile series was sold cheap, and 2) that they are easy to maintain. Both implications are supported multiple times by nomad fluff (pg 118, 132, and the iguana on the human sphere page). Those are all first party sources, the RPG TAG book has more. Our TAGs are cheap, easy to maintain according to multiple factions, and we get crazy or tough people to pilot them (gator pilots are tough and crazy, geckos are certain they are the heaviest armored bugger in a boarding action, iguanas are noted to be psychologically tough, lizards are a cult, and salamanders are so full of spite they'll get out of their TAG and hack you right back). According to fluff they should have courage.

    Also, Anacondas have corregidor pilots, bakkunin TAGs, and are backed by a Tunguskan bank. They are as nomad as you can get and have courage. Page 252 of the N4 core book if you are interested.
     
    #11 karush, Aug 10, 2022
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2022
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  12. karush

    karush Well-Known Member

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    Great analysis! I in particular agree with the Gecko and support unit comments. Even in the fluff they note the gecko is used more like super heavy infantry than like a TAG.

    As for why we got the gator instead of a new lizard (which I feel it is replacing, in real life if not in universe) I have a theory. This is pure conjecture, but typically the code one release for a faction is focused on a sectorial, not SOLELY but like 75% or so. Up till crimson stone code one TAG boxes were either new sculpts (cutter and sphinx) or totally new models (blue wolf and Zeta). Then crimson stone drops and we get a repackage of the Sally and Ariadna gets the black jack. Disappointing but life moves on. The next year we get get the gator and the ariadnans get the chernobog. But why? I think what happened was supply line issues.

    Basically I think the gator and Chernobog were always meant to be the code one TAGs released with crimson stone. But either due supply line issues, man power shortage on the design end, or some other issue likely caused or worsened by covid forced them to delay these models. But they still needed to put out code one TAG boxes (they do need to sell models to keep the lights on). So what do you do? You put some great sculpts in a TAG box and hope the fan base does not get too angry.

    Assuming even half of that is true, I feel sorry for CB, and no hard feelings on it. I still like this company and I love this game... just maybe a combi-rifle shouldn't make the armor 8/11 in cover mechanized behemoth duck and cover :P
     
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  13. D_acolyte

    D_acolyte Well-Known Member

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    This seems odd, there are about 25 non standard remote and non merc models in Nomads that have courage. Most of them are CJC (like all the cat units and the HI) though a few are Tunguska such.
     
  14. D_acolyte

    D_acolyte Well-Known Member

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    That being said, I love seeing Salamanders with suppression in cover fail guts when I shoot it with a pistol that cannot even hurt it. Always makes me laugh.
     
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  15. karush

    karush Well-Known Member

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    So reporting a bug is annoying? Good to know.

    I report it because I honestly think it is a bug or otherwise an oversight in the design process. Furthermore, it is an easy fix. I still play nomad TAGs, I still love them, at this point it is mostly awareness and hoping a change is made. But I don't see a change likely being made if nothing is said on it.
     
    #15 karush, Aug 10, 2022
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2022
  16. karush

    karush Well-Known Member

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    Also fun fact for "fluff" arguments. The Anaconda is a nomad TAG in the fluff. Formerly part of CJC, piloting upgraded reptiles, and are openly supported by a tunguskan firm Tyomkin Bank (and perhaps a hand clad in black). They are Nomads no matter how you cut it... and they have courage!

    Page 252 of the core book for those curious enough to look.
     
  17. burlesford

    burlesford Sheet guy

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    It's not a bug. It's your opinion. Just because you think it is a bug doesn't make it a bug. I'm not going to the army thread claiming it's a bug that my Kriza Borac doesn't have his BS Attack (-3) anymore just because I want him to have it.

    If this behavior were tolerated, the thread would be flooded with "bug reports" by everyone who's dissatisfied with their favorite profile. So please stop treating your behavior as justified only because you're salty CB sees this issue differently from you.

    And to counter your fluff argument: As numerous people have pointed out, Courage makes the most sense if you attribute it to the pilot, not the machine. Anacondas are piloted by a Merc company, not Nomad military. They might have a different attitude towards their TAGs. No reason why they shouldn't have Courage.
     
  18. karush

    karush Well-Known Member

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    It does come off as a bug moving from N3 to N4 where they un-nested rules and made sure everything with remote presence retained courage or gained religious, and it feels like an oversight when the magiriba was one of the examples of what to do when you fail a guts check in the N3 rule book, but in the new edition now has courage making it's old example moot. Compare the profiles for N3 vs. N4 here (https://human-sphere.com/index.php?title=Maghariba_Guard). Also ditto for other manned TAGs.

    As for the Anacondas, they were part of CJC, operate bakkinin machines, are funded by a tunguska bank, and are called out as a likely instrument of the black hand. In short, they have nomad pilots (pg. 252, N4 core). Also the example Anaconda pilot from the TAG book for the RPG is from Corregidor, page 8.

    But looking at the other nomad pilots *all* of them except maybe the salamander sound like they should have courage or religious at worst.

    Geckos spearhead boarding parties and are "alpha males, the toughest predators in the corregidor pack", so the alpha males don't have courage in an army that has courage in literally every other section? Core book 132

    Iguana "the Iguana squad emphasizes the physical and mental training of their pilots." And "their training and tenacity are responsible for levelling the playing field."... in particular calling out their tenacity implies some level of courage. https://human-sphere.com/index.php?title=Iguana

    Lizards are expressly called a subculture, largely recruited from the black labs, and are selected for "ideological viewpoint and aesthetics in congruence with the labs"... so sounds like they should be pretty loyal or fervent. Page 17 TAGs the infinity RPG book.

    Salamander- this one i admit is weaker than the others. More of comparison between their name sake and their tactical usage, but does imply heavily they will withstand and dish out punishment. "The Reptile Series TAGs (Tactical Armored Gear) of Tunguska get their name from their similarity to the mythical salamander that could live in the midst of fire and also spit it. Their thick armor allows them to withstand the hardest punishment, and the Hyper-Rapid Magnetic Cannon they carry can neutralize any opposition"https://human-sphere.com/index.php?title=Szalamandra

    And gators are always in the middle of the fight, recruited from the same trouble makers that make up the courageous jaguars. Sorry for lack of a quote, lent that book out.

    So, if I may ask. What evidence would it take to change your mind?
    Is it a clear move by corvus belli to give more TAGs religious and courage? Because I have provided that.

    Is it fluff expressly calling out the tenacity, skill, and bravery or nomad pilots? I have provided that.

    It is an example of a Nomad TAG that in fluff is clearly a nomad TAG, but in our world would have been beta tested separately from the nomad TAGs because it does not appear in that faction? I have provided that.

    And in fairness I will answer my own question.

    If I saw fluff expressly calling out the lack of training of nomad pilots or perhaps downplaying how rightly crazy they are, that would make me reconsider.

    If a TAG was released specifically for Infinity outside of the nomads lacked courage or religious, that would make me reconsider.

    Maybe a timeline of the N4 beta testing showing when TAGs started getting courage or religious and that the nomad TAGs were still in development at that time? That would most certainly give me pause for consideration.

    Please provide something tangible, I WANT to be wrong. Cause right now it just looks like CB messed up, and they are either unaware or don't want to correct an easy mistake in their design process. And given the events of the world at that time, understandable. Still want it fixed though.

    I love this game, I love TAGs. But it is perplexing that the faction with the 3rd most TAGs (double the number of the next factions), falls into this weird gap in the rules.
     
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  19. Cthulhu363

    Cthulhu363 May his passage cleanse the world.

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    Bravery and courage have nothing to do with a tactical retreat. Nomads have awesome TAGs, sure, but they have very few of them compared to the other factions. The pilots are brave or fanatical but would be trained to put the welfare of their expensive and rare machine above anything else right?
     
  20. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    Geckos get Haris now, haven’t seen that mentioned. So you can stick a Wildcat Engineer plus either Lupe or Massacre on there for smoke and close defense. Super, super nas-tay!
     
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