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Isnt it too much?

Discussion in 'Nomads' started by Angry Clown, Mar 5, 2022.

  1. natetehaggresar

    natetehaggresar Senior Backlogged Painter Manager

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    Gator exist so we have MBTs to build a list around???

    Excuse me, don't we have the lizard? Which is the contemporary MBT to squalo, raicho, guija?

    I don't understand why CB decided to give corrigidor Gators. They already have more tags than any other Nomad sectorial? Like aren't nomad tags upgraded in the black labs of praxis?

    I agree that generally Gators exist in a bad design space, tags are not supposed to be so resistant to stuff like Oniwaban. And when you compare Gators price to lizards it seems out of wack.
     
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  2. DaRedOne

    DaRedOne Morat Warrior Philosopher
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    I generally count myself on the 'Cautiously Optimistic' side whenever it comes to judging CB's actions, so I'm inclined to agree with you here. With the caveat that I don't think they're doing it enough.

    Now, CB IS a small company. They might just not have the manpower needed to give every army a proper pass through and updates. Which in turn makes the whole 'Nomads get too much attention' situation a bit worse, because we know they have limited time, so people can become frustrated with the feeling they're wasting that time with stuff that is already good, like nomads.

    I will withhold any harsh judgment until I see the Steel Phallanx and HB updates later this year.
     
  3. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    HB will be anywhere from good to borderline disgusting, it's one of Gutier's pet factions. Just look at the attention that HB got in the N4 transition compared to USARF which was basically left to drown (seriously, remember the Blackjack somehow got more expensive).
     
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  4. Child9

    Child9 Well-Known Member

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    Hum, I'm pretty sure some of the ones claiming "Nomads aren't dominating tournaments, so what? It doesn't mean anything" would say the exact opposite if Nomads were actually dominating tournaments...

    Yeah, the Gecko mini-TAG and the barely-playable Iguana. Corregidor was indeed a very scary TAG faction... :P
    Not saying they needed the Gator but it never was a TAG sectorial before.

    Said who? Why a few TAGs couldn't be more resistant to stuff like Oniwaban?
    BTW, an Oniwaban still has good chances to take it down, with Surprise Attack, that's a automatic success with +4 to the dice and 25% chances to put a critical hit VS a simple 17.

    Yeah, that point that two people over thousands keep repeating in an endless loop would be valid if "Gutier's factions" haven't been that lame for such a long time before getting some love.
     
  5. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    I think this line is repeatedly getting tiresome.
     
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  6. Errhile

    Errhile A traveller on the Silk Road

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    Technically, I don't recall Corregidor being lame. It lacked a number of tricks back in 2ed (the most troublesome for me being lack of Camo Infiltrators - it wasn't amended till Bandits showing up in N3), but it did fine.

    N2 Hassassins were well-known to be a faction with a steep learning curve, and one generally considered to be a difficult one to play. Whether this can be translated as "lame", I cannot say.

    Please note I'm referring to, specifically, N2 era of these Sectorials. In N3 they were pretty nice (though HB required a rather cookie-cutter build if you ask me, to mitigate enemy alpha strikes. Which wasn't a good design IMO, but wouldn't call it names, either). In N4, buth are doing pretty well, although I agree that Corregidor's Ravenseye-era additions (Diablos, Lobos and the Gator) weren't necessary. Even the Crimson Stone add-ons of EVAders and Sombras weren't that badly needed (I'm happy to have a heavy combat REM the Vostok is in a faction that was known to be REM-heavy).

    The Gator, who seems the chief rock of offense in this discussion, is a more complicated issue in my eyes.
    As I said before in this topic, I don't say no to Corregidor getting an MBT. Whether Gator is a good design (as in, one that is fun to play with, and play aginst it), I'm not sure (I have had no chance to test it yet), but I agree that on paper it does not look like it would be fun. CB may alter its stats once they get some more feedback. Like, apparently, they did with Vostok, cutting all its profiles save for the Mk12 one.


    Disclaimer: yes, I do play Corregidor and Hassassins since pre-Paradiso N2. As well as a handful other sectorials.
    Then again, I'm not a competitive, tournament player.
     
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  7. Child9

    Child9 Well-Known Member

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    "Lame" might indeed be an over exaggeration :)
    But these factions were definitely not high-end ones for a long time, therefore excluding the childish idea "gnagnagna, this faction is OP because it is the favorite one of the game designer", that a tiny amount of frustrated forumers try repeateadly to turn into an undeniable truth.
     
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  8. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    I'll talk loads of shit about the rest, but Hellcats having Combat Jump +3 IMO embodies Corregidor's supposed mastery of vacuum/orbital insertion operations.
     
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  9. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Tiresome? Or you're frustrated that people aren't joining the consensus clique?

    We're still in a situation where Nomads can kill a lieutenant top of 1 with a Heckler/GML combo and there's really nothing people can do to stop it besides put their lieutenant in marker state or run multiple decoys. If it's identified, it can be killed with basically no counterplay.
     
  10. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    The issue was the stacking of abilities like Mimetism (-6) and 2w combined with Marksmanship made it one of the best gunfighters in the game, in a faction that, despite what @psychoticstorm says, is not supposed to be the best gunfighters. They should have deleted the Mimetism version and left the Albedo.
     
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  11. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    A large amount of multiple in-person playgroups agree with the sentiment that Corregidor is given too much stuff and that not enough thought is put into Corregidor/Nomad power level; it's also effort that could be given to other factions/subfactions which are more in need of it (Bakunin even). To be frank, I really want to avoid the effective designtation of "protagonist" and "NPC" factions that some other games have. It should be an ensemble cast.
     
  12. Ugin

    Ugin Well-Known Member
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    In N3, Hellcats were the only troop that have Superior Combat Jump. I guess it is because they are one of the best jumpers among the Human Sphere.
    What is so wrong with them having Combat Jump(PH=15)?

    I agree with your overall argument saying "The expansion of Nomads' playstyles is getting ridiculous", while I also think the disscussion regarding which one of those expansion 'deserves to be eliminated', should be executed carefully.

    It is REALLY TIRESOME to see people not only just criticize the indulgence of CB regarding the faction balance, but also expand the focus of censure to already existing, which are somewhat acceptable faction specific traits.


    I never expected Jazz team to be this cheap while having HD+ AND Trinity. She could have been wielding just HD.
    I never expected EVAders to come out as this efficient point-wise. I would have definately fielded them even though they don't have AP spitfire and just be BS 12. They would be still effective as versatile HIs.
    I never expected that Hacking would be this good while KHDs getting nerfed so hard. The systematic legitimacy between Hackers and others(including KHD) is broken more than ever.

    But still I like Hellcats being the best jumpers among the entire game, Morans being pain in the arse as they were in N3, Brigadas being standard-ass HIs who do their things pretty well(they got buffed, but I think it doesn't deviate the permissible level).
    And to be honest, I love the look of Gators and Diablos. Would definately buy those.

    ...Well, as psychoticstorm has mentioned, this is tiresome for real.
     
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  13. SpectralOwl

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    While I actually completely agree with you in pretty much all respects (Nomads have crept to a ridiculous level, would those two guys stop talking about Gutier's preferences, Gator looks cool but is bad for game), I would like to point out that there's every chance someone looking over Nomads with a fresh pair of eyes simply might not know that Corregidor used to be the AD faction. Hell, could even be that the faction needs a Yu Jing-style revamp to cement a new set of strengths, Nomad MI sure aren't the envy of the game anymore.
     
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  14. Errhile

    Errhile A traveller on the Silk Road

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    Don't get me wrong: I like having a Vostok as a heavy combat REM. Heavy combat REM I define here as having STR 2 or better and a decent ARM. Oh, and a fitting weapon (Mk12 counts, I wasn't really sold on the shotgun and ML variants of it). The rest is, let's say, negotiable. I just want Nomads (and, by extension, Corregidor), the remote-heavy-faction, to have something in the general class of Aleph's Rudra GunBot. Mimetism -6 is really an icing on the cake for me: obviously great to have it, but hardly something I consider necessary for it to function.

    Same as with the Gator. A Corregidorian MBT - yes, please. The exact way it was executed (as of the Ravenseye-era update), well, not necessary.

    And Ariadna didn't have access to TAG tech at all, except for the totally obsolete RM-100, the fluff said.
    Then, there came Anacondas in FRRM, back in N2HS if memory serves me. Yes, I know, they are a mercenary TAG squadron.
    And nowadays they got not only repurposed industrial Triphammers, but totally domestic Chernobogs.

    Yes, I was quite a shock to me when they revealed it. Ariadna can into TAGs now.
    But then again, this tells me the Infinity universe isn't static. It is developing in timeline and there seems to be technological advance. Ariadna wasn't able to build TAGs back in the day, but now they do (I haven't had my hands on the books to learn the story behind that, but there is, I guess, a fluff explaination of it).

    Same as Haqqislam wasn't capable of building TAGs on their own, the XCR-1 Bokbocegi Magharibas being a PanO product that didn't got the popularity on the PanO market, and got purchased in bulk by Haqq. But by the N3, Haqq authorities actually bought out the entire Archeotech Co. (lock, stock and barrel, apparently - with entire staff, know-how and actual production facilites) and are happily cranking out the new XCR-5 Akrep Magharibas. Haqq can make their own TAGs now.

    Again, I haven't had my hands on Ravenseye. I don't know the backstory behind the Gator. Why, fluff-wise, it didn't show up earlier in the timeline, and what high-end (maybe experimental) stuff the Praxis techs were able to cram into it. But I assume there is a fluff-wise explaination.

    However, fluff-wise explainations are one thing, and game balance is a totally different thing IMO.

    Well, count me among these people, then. Because I still can't figure how to use an (effectively) 1STR NWI TAG sensibly. Keeping the point investment in a kill-points mission was way easier back in the Ejection System days, now, with current incarnation of an Escape System, I just don't see it.
    In my eyes, Iguana needs a rewrite.
     
  15. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead

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    To be precise, I have nothing against Hellcats being not even one of the best but the best Combat Jump troopers in the game. Just as I have nothing against Tomcats being excellent toolbox unit and combat docs/engineers. That focus on AD operations and top of the line MI is something that perfectly suits Nomads in general and CJC in particular. What I'm asking is for CB to rein in the expansion of tools available to that particular sectorial, especially since other factions don't get the same level of care. To leave PanO examples aside - QK, FRRM, USARF, Tohaa are left in dust. Shasvastii were waiting for their rework for almost entire N3. MAF also had to wait for it, and it still has its share of small issues (like Shock CCWs on units which won't gain anything by using them). YJ players are asking for some changes for how long now? Even in Nomads Bakunin seems to be forgotten. The game's still fun, because the core mechanics are robust enough that this doesn't cause game-breaking balance issues, but it's still disheartening.
     
    #475 Stiopa, May 31, 2022
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 4, 2022
  16. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    And if Nomads were dominating, and the specific builds being cited as problematic were the builds being used, it would be worth looking into in greater detail. Are the same players getting those results over and over again? What do their opponents look like? Are they getting those results in smaller events with a limited field, or in large events? Are these results always coming against a limited roster of factions, or against every faction? Are they coming from multiple metas, or a limited area? Is it happening both in real games and TTS, or just TTS? Etc., etc., etc.
     
  17. DaRedOne

    DaRedOne Morat Warrior Philosopher
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    Ok, let's try to break some stuff down here, because to me it feels like there are two topics being discussed at the same time here.

    One - Dominance, Metagame and Balance:
    Infinity is, in my humble opinion, one of the most well-balanced wargames outside of historical stuff like Flames of War and Bolt Action where everyone is pretty much the same, just with different coats of paint. This means that in this game, the mechanical difference between a 'Top tier' army and a 'Mid tier' army is small enough that player skill is a much bigger factory in victory.
    In this topic, we have some people complaining about the Spotlight+Guided Missile combo being too strong and creating matchups where player skill becomes less relevant. Nomads is a faction that can easily benefit from this combo, but is not the only one. The problem thus isn't Nomads, it's the Spotlight+Guided Missile interaction that should be limited somehow.

    Two - Dedication, interest and creative design time spent on factions:
    This is a different ballpark. The complaint here isn't that Nomads are an OP faction, but that they're the faction that most consistently have been in the spotlight. They're constantly getting updates and new toys, and they're also usually the first ones to get stuff that should be signature of other factions given to them. This creates the feeling that Nomads are being 'overdesigned' and that instead of dedicating time to other factions that haven't had their time in the spotlight for a few years already, we get to see nomads constantly pop up, and constantly get stuff that really, really could have gone to other people. Or failing that, there's a somewhat frustrating sensation that CB is 'wasting time' with Nomads.

    These two things are not related at all. The first is a problem that arose out of the hacking simplification for N4, it has jack shit to do with nomads but does show that maybe the N4 hacking could use a review (I agree KHDs are ridiculously weak nowadays, for example)

    I am more interested in discussing the second topic because, honestly? When CB actually puts care into stuff the result is usually pretty great. The MAF remake was nice, MO remake almost made me want to start them too. I would love to see them put that kind of love and care into, idk, Tohaa? Which is why I am cautelously optimistic about the Steel Phallanx remake. There's a significant chance of it being pretty great as well.
     
  18. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead

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    MO remake almost made me keep PanO. Aside from few minor issues (which show up with every remake, so no big deal) it's a very nice makeover. MAF remake is on the same level. And I'm really looking forward to the incoming ones.
     
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  19. Child9

    Child9 Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely.
    And this has been repeated over and over, here and on other topics as well, but some people insist on making it an endless crusade against Nomads. For some reason.
     
    #479 Child9, May 31, 2022
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 4, 2022
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  20. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Are they the "remote-heavy faction"? Thematically, I think OSS and OCF are supposed to have them beat.

    Why would you mention it if you know they're supposed to be mercs?

    The problem is that if new profiles represent technological innovation, why are Nomads in general and Corregidor specifically doing all the technological innovation? Why isn't Bakunin doing anything? Are they failing to innovate? Your argument fails on a number of levels.

    However, fluff-wise explainations are one thing, and game balance is a totally different thing IMO.



    Considering you're describing the Anaconda as "1 STR NWI" I don't think you quite get it.
     
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