Again, this is terrible advice born from you taking advantage of people who don't know how to play. This is a classic noob trap that people go through in learning Infinity, particularly when they first start playing with fireteams. They deploy something that wants to immediately move in a position that is way over exposed (or less frequently, prone on a roof without considering the only ladder down will have multiple guns pointed at it). Competent players will be ready with a solution which may range from LOF blockers, to an alternative attack piece positioned to pick off the offending targets (for example group 2 fire support units), to nearby link refill options to break the link and leave the unnecessary ARO piece behind the list goes on there's lots of options. Against competent players this isn't a trap it's at worst a minor inconvenience. Against competent players this is probably just asking to get Sun Tze assblasted by an HMG from across the table. Again, this is not an example of an ARO trap it's just an example of you playing somebody who's new to the game. Which again, by all means play games with new people but I recommend against trying to formulate strategy from this because well... you're literally basing strategy on an opponent who doesn't know what they're doing. You said you like to use him in Coordinated Orders against TAGs. Seriously what are you basing these suggestions off? Are people literally deploying their TAGs out on ARO duties for you to shoot at? No, that is incorrect. I pop out from behind the door when people decide to misrepresent bad units as good units or try use some irrelevant point of data or something factually incorrect as an argument. Again, literally lots of people posting ISS lists in this thread and the other threads that I'm not arguing with because they're not misrepresenting shit in those threads. Yes, Sun Tze is an AP weapon in a faction that's generally starved of them. He's also not very useful as an active turn solution because he can't leverage that AP weapon. He's slow, starts in the DZ, and he's too important to extend in attack with. He's also not even a reasonably decent AP weapon, B2 (which is bad) leaves him at statistically something like 9 orders to inflict 3 wounds on an ARM8 TAG, no sane person is going to let you have 9 attempts on a TAG to bring it down from long range they're just going to guts out of the way on the first hit. So he can't really leverage his selling point in Active, and we've been over and apparently we now both agree he's sub-par as an ARO unit... so you've functionally paid 51 points for Strategos. That's alot of points, it's a 6th of your list. I played a shitload of Sun Tze in N3, I have had alot of experience with Strategos. It was a niche option in N3 and it was way stronger then. I can very much guarantee you that nerfed N4 Strategos is not worth 51pts, let alone the extra crap you're shelling out on Taowu to disguise him. Lastly, I'll reiterate. If you want to tinker with a list to badly fit in your favourite model by all means follow your dreams I have no argument with that, I fuck around with meme lists all the time too. However, don't expect to then argue that they're good and not have just that, an argument about it.
It's not worth 51 pts for Strategos. Sigh. It's worth: Let's say 30pts for a 2 wound BS14 sniper with an MSR, MSV1 and total immunity. Mimetism would be nice, but a Bao or Guilang is 29pts and it's in the right ballpark. 10 points for an extra command token, 2nd order contributed to his pool, 75% chance of winning your initiative roll and an extra reserve model. So Strategos is worth less than 51 pts! 10 points of not caring if each model is exactly worth what I pay for it if it contributes something unique to what I'm trying to do in my list! The unaccounted-for last 1 point makes him worth it just to annoy you. The reason this is a big hairy debate is because you (or being fair, both of us) drag it into one. Everyone reading it is free to decide if my list idea looks fun and/or has glaring weaknesses. Still, Sun is the only thing that can get an 11 or 12 order group to power something around in ISS and if you're taking him you may as well put him to work.
Personally, I've never been terribly impressed with v2 of Sun Tze; he's a high-priority target for your opponent already, so leaving him out on ARO seems... brave. I main Tohaa, and I've lost Nikoul Snipers to a single HMG attack more times than I can count. Just seems like a very risky strategy. V1 at least can be an incredible road block later in the game with WIP 17 Flash pulses, Suppressive Fire, and 3 beefy wounds. Though being Hackable he can run into trouble there too. As an aside; WIP 17 does not win Initiative 75% of the time; against a more typical WIP 14 LT, the odds go 58-8-34 for win-tie-lose; that's a 63% chance to win. Against WIP 13 it goes to ~67%. IMO Sun Tze is in a weird place where he *technically* is worth what you're paying, but the end result is something that struggles with split identity. As an obvious LT that generates "2" orders you want to keep him safe, but his price point means you need him to be generating value; it's the classic "expensive LT" problem; Saladin has the same issue, where you can end up losing because he ultimately can't pull enough weight to justify his point cost. To be fair, that can also happen with the *other* infamously expensive LT, Hector, but with fireteam bonuses + Plasma Rifle + amazing in CC + generating 3 orders he has less trouble.
YueFei you are misunderstanding how to apply the concept of value. Value doesn't translate like that because he's the LT and he generates multiple orders, it's an anchor around his neck. A Haidao sniper for example is a worth his points, because you can freely be as aggressive or defensive with him as the situation dictates. Being an LT means you have to behave more preciously with him, you can no longer push as far to attack, nor can you use him to protect other units without making him a huge target. Why is the Daoying one of the best LTs in the entire game? Because it contributes at a reasonable price point while remaining as safe as possible in a deployment zone. Sun Tze on the other hand costs as much as slamming a Su Jian down on the table, something that expensive needs to go hard or go home in raw contribution, but statistically he'll struggle to have that much impact. Instead you have a mediocre sniper who durdles around your DZ a bit and can't be used to go hard on the offensive. Playing sectorials also has the issue of any active turn piece automatically has an unspoken cost judged against them, namely what fireteam options they have. Some units have a desirable brand of skills, such as Dao Fei, Hac Tao, certain TAGs, that will help them overcome this unspoken cost, for others their viability is won or lost on their Fireteam options. Look at So-Ra, she went from being not worth her points to being a viable unit purely on the back of receiving improved Fireteam options in the update. Sun Tze continues to have nothing to help him here. As Delta points out, another example of an expensive Strategos LT is Hector, Hector is worth his points because he can and will be used as a highly destructive pain train unit spearheading a fireteam and reaping all the bonuses of being in one of those. Hector can and will shoot his way through an opponent's army while dragging around potential toolbox units such as Parvati or Psi-cops into position to do their own work. Your maths are incorrect. Use the Dice Calculator and set ARM to 0 and damage values to 20 to simulate a F2F where there's no ARM roll. 54.5% vs WIP15 58% vs WIP14 61.25% vs WIP13 64.25% vs Pan-O WIP
On a separate note, I want to remind you that if you are hellbent on wanting some kind of long range AP gun, potential ARO unit, or in general a Sniper of some kind ISS actually does have a solid option after the update there is no reason to reach for mediocre garbage like Sun Tze to fill that. Dakini can core link with Celestial Guard now. 5 CELESTIAL GUARD Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 13) CELESTIAL GUARD Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 13) CELESTIAL GUARD Combi Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 13) DAKINI MULTI Sniper Rifle / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (1.5 | 20) CELESTIAL GUARD Combi Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 13) 1.5 SWC | 72 Points Even without putting marksmanship on it the Dakini is a better shot against high ARM targets than Sun Tze and with Marksmanship it blows him out of the water. That is a perfectly acceptable core link to build an army off from, substituting in wildcards, a second Dakini (like a HMG), or adding EVO support or other options.
Even the Dakini haris has gained substantially from the rework. In addition to being able to fit in the Pheasant in a position that actually works reasonably well with its defensively oriented kit, the ability to take two haris teams means you aren't compromising your lists' options by picking one haris over another, which was a huge opportunity cost for ISS no matter what you went with. I've messed around with two haris teams and a pseudo haris on top, and I'm liking it a lot. ISS not relying as heavily on fireteam bonuses as other sectorials has ended up suiting them very well with the new update alongside the other bonuses they gained. Overall, they've gained tremendously. While I still think they've got some problems to work through that will probably wind them up on the lower-middle end of the power curve once the dust settles, the toolkits feel much more varied to work with and listbuilding with ISS is actually really fun again. A bit of polish on top could really turn them into a gem. On the topic of one of those major blemishes on the faction, Sun Tze really needs to see some design shift to keep up with the times. What it means to be an apex commander has changed. He absolutely should be a command-focused trooper, but how that works has changed considerably and Sun Tze needs to follow his own advice and adapt to that. Personally, I'd like to see the WIP dropped to 15, and Command Token +1 removed to cut point costs. Instead, give him Inspiring Leadership (limit Lt versions to ISS to compensate, not like vanilla will miss him). Good use of Inspiring Leadership should more than make up the lost command token, and makes sense thematically and as a gameplay tool in giving him the ability to actually coordinate joint maneuvers as a combat leader and tactician. On top of that, let him join Zhian teams and give him Strategic Deployment and Veteran. ISS has plenty of mid/close range badasses that start in the DZ that would love to pay the premium to party up with Sun like this. Boost BS to 13; Sunny shouldn't be a combat badass to keep up with some of the beefier pieces out there, but he should hold his own for what he costs. Lt2 wouldn't be out of order, but I wouldn't consider it absolutely necessary.
Without a doubt they gained alot from the fireteam update, both in actual fireteams and their solo operatives like Su Jian becoming stronger on the firepower scale. The biggest bugbear that remains is they still get utterly stomped by the top end of the meta which is infested with guided weaponry and hackers. ISS just doesn't have a reasonable option to defend themselves against that kind of alpha strike hitting them.
Considering how fun ISS is to mess around with at the moment (I really did not think I would be saying that again after my early experiences with them at the beginning of N4), I think that's a fair indication that knocking those degenerate top-end strategies down several pegs is probably the healthiest thing that could happen to the game. We don't need to embrace that 'bring everyone up to their level' mindset when the water feels just right over here.
To specify what sort of polish I'm implying for ISS: Linkable combat engineer profile - Yu Jing has been transitioning into the niche of featuring potent combat engineers, and ISS deserves to be no exception. Zhanying and Wu Ming both make perfect sense for featuring such a profile, and you could give either one some pretty weird loadouts that would fit for this. In any case, with all the new fireteam builds that need filling, the Sophotect, which was already struggling to find room before, now has a harder time than ever justifying a slot in ISS. At this point, I'd go as far as to consider it defunct. ISS is now tighter for space and hungrier for orders than ever before, and that just does not fit in well with a 31(+) point solo piece that does nothing to fit in with your offensive game. Improved smoke access - The change to grenade launcher range bands hurt ISS' smoke access a lot going into N4, and the fireteam rework went even further. Even with B2, the only way that ISS can get decently reliable odds of getting smoke down in a pinch is with a Kuang core now, and that's way more limiting than it should be. Since its inception, ISS was a faction that paid a heavy conceptual premium for its combination of smoke and MSV, and that's just not a compromise that most newer factions make anymore to gain those benefits. So at the very least, we should at least get that smoke back. With Cranes other than Adil being the poster children for overpriced mediocrity, perhaps giving them a profile that tosses smoke might give me a reason to dust off one of mine. Anti Armour - Looting and Sabotage is awful, and armour actually matters when I'm not the one paying points for it. ISS needs more methods for dealing with both. Breaker spitfire on Crane, please. Hacking defenses and Lt safety - Much regarding this has been discussed to death already, but it bears emphasis because ISS is a faction that is so heavily dependant on its ass-kicking authority figures and it doesn't help that doing so paints a massive target on their back.
Eh. Inspiring Leadership is almost pointless for ISS. It could be cool for vanilla as that'd be a bit more fitting to Sun's slight lean towards humanism as it'd promote the use of cheap irregulars over Kuang Shi, but also quite strong considering the high amount of irregulars and that vanilla is already quite potent. Dropping his WIP to 15 could probably save between 5 and 8 points, what you'd truly accomplish is to remove the flair of the unit and not much more. In particular, with how ISS is pushed hard towards large number of fireteams, there's not much room for using the "free" coordinated order and it'd push the command token use upwards so removing that ability wouldn't really make much sense. Sun is sitting on a unique slot in both ISS and vanilla already, CB doesn't need to invent this design space they just need to make sure it's a boot Sun can fill. 45 for the sniper isn't a bloody price. Compares reasonably to Haidao, Saladin and Hortlak. There's just nothing really weird going on aside from WIP scaling to an extreme and Strategos on a non-LT. The heavy infantry version is the one that's dubious and shouldn't be much more expensive than Sun2. More expensive, yes if we assume same gun, extra wound and same BS parried by hackability, but not to the tune of 20+ points more expensive if we account for those. Then there's the space in army to consider and I personally don't think Sun, either version, truly makes sense in any capacity other than as a supreme commander if present. Having non-LT options is superfluous and the fact that we get to pay 4 points of strategos if we don't pick the LT option means we're disincentivized to pick that option to begin with. Having Sun without almost all of the leadership skills is just weird and in this respect even the current version is very barebones considering the legendary status of real Sun Tze and what Aleph has managed to produce on a much lower budget. Hector shouldn't be better at lieutenanting! Yet Hector is better at lieutenanting. All in all, the design space and the fluff and flair of Sun don't really leave room for having him as a glorified turret and there's room for having a premium character inflate order count similar to how other armies, IA in particular, uses LT2 and a good NCO to inflate theirs! Sun just needs to be able to do this and he needs to do it at a price that's reasonable. Sun1 isn't reasonable by a long shot and Sun2 can't do it because the universe' most expensive recreation of the most legendary military leader of all time is barely better than a guy from a backwater planet without proper satellite coverage. So my armchair general prescription: Sun1: +2 BS, +1 LT order, -5 points. Remove non-LT profiles. Sun2: +1 LT order, +0 points. Remove non-LT profiles, add back Multi Rifle profiles.
Or we just finally release Weathercocks TAG and make an ISS exclusive Sun Tze marksman V3 TAG based on that? Dedicated TAG LT could become a new sectorial defining feature.
Back to ISS teams, I was making lists for Highly Classified/Counermeasures and realized how good the Zhanying are for that mission. Veteran, Hacker, Sensor, D-charges, Forward Observer. The hacker alone can do a few, but a team of them can do a lot. These teams can accomplish a lot of cards. I could change out a WM to a Crane for good CC if I got those cards but I'd rather use something like a Ninja for those. Then too they become mixed. WÚ MÍNG Boarding Shotgun ( | TinBot: Firewall [-6]) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 31) WÚ MÍNG Heavy Machine Gun / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 37) ZHÀNYING (Hacker, Hacking Device) Breaker Combi Rifle, Chain-colt, D-Charges ( ) / Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (0.5 | 25) ZHÀNYING (Forward Observer) Breaker Combi Rifle, Chain-colt, Flash Pulse / Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (0 | 21) ZHÀNYING (Sensor, Triangulated Fire, Minelayer) Breaker Combi Rifle, Chain-colt, Madtraps / Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (0 | 23) 2 SWC | 137 Points WÚ MÍNG Heavy Machine Gun / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 37) ZHÀNYING (Hacker, Hacking Device) Breaker Combi Rifle, Chain-colt, D-Charges ( ) / Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (0.5 | 25) ZHÀNYING (Sensor, Triangulated Fire, Minelayer) Breaker Combi Rifle, Chain-colt, Madtraps / Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (0 | 23) 2 SWC | 85 Points
My maths are closer than yours because you've missed that you can't end in a tie. I was mucking around with a matrix when I came up with those numbers. WIP 17 vs WIP 14 is a win 71.17% of the time, WIP 17 vs WIP 13 is 74.92% of the time. The dice calculator can't handle a succession of infinite re-rolls, this method does it naturally if you just disregard the tie outcomes. @Triumph ... I'll take my victory lap for demonstrating you concretely wrong on something now. I went on the "build a list again with Sun Tze" mission because I'd fallen into the trap of wishlisting Sun Tze changes again earlier in the thread, and it really is more fun to put him on the table, even in jest. Even funnier to put two of him down. The one thing he does do well is reserve drop 2-3 things and give you a much better than average job of going first while giving you the biggest order pool ISS can get. In case anyone is misunderstanding my advice... this is not the best list in Infinity and not even the best ISS list. It most likely won't win tournaments. It will not make ladies love you. It will cause you to be constantly harassed by forum regulars. It is fun though, and you can get some mileage out of ST sniper if you realize that the glass is half full rather than half empty and let him do what he does passably well. @Weathercock - I agree it seems hard to fit two haris teams and a Sophotect, so as I decided to push the Su Jian around I left one haris out to fit her. Su Jian focused lists or rem heavy lists will be the main time she makes sense, and it is a shame we can't get a cheaper or linkable engineer somewhere. As we keep calling out repeaters and hacking being powerful in N4, it's worth remembering an engineer is the only thing we have to recover from getting important models bricked and immobilised in our DZ. It's also probably going to restrict the use of the double haris lists in countermeasures and highly classified - sometimes you've got to cover all the specialist roles.
You've missed a whole host of 2 results when Sun rolls 18+ but opponent nails theirs which is probably why your results are so far off of Toadchild's. The first "roll" should be exactly as Toadchild's calculator and on the 8% that there is no winner you re-roll which means that the results won't shift any more than at most 8 per cent units for either side - that re-roll should have the same distribution as the first, however, so the results will converge to a predictable outcome which should be around 62.5% vs 37.5%. In my opinion, that's decent odds, but it is not worth pursuing since it's non-repeatable.
I am actually terrible at maths believe it or not, so I need someone else to explain what I'm looking at because I don't understand this table.
Top row is the opponent's roll, left column is Sun Tze's roll. Each result is equally possible to be rolled so the table is two-dimensional with each slot denoting one single outcome. Slots marked with a 1 means victory for Sun, slots marked with a 2 means victory for the unknown LT, slots marked with an X means re-rolling both - which will have the same chance distribution so slots/outcomes of X can be ignored since the two rolls are independent of each other and independent on the previous roll. There are 32 slots with X in them meaning the total number of slots that are interesting to look at is (20x20)-32=368 There are 232 favourable outcomes for Sun Tze There are 136 favourable outcomes for Unknown LT - including the 42 outcomes that YueFei23 missed. Hence, we can just easily divide Sun Tze: 232/368=0,6304 (63%) Unk. LT: 136/368=0,36957 (37%)
Thanks @Mahtamori, so my math was missing a couple of columns. @Triumph and I were both wrong, so I will shorten my victory lap a little. 63% victory vs WIP 14 67% victory vs WIP 13 71% victory vs WIP 12 And 50% vs an avatar... obviously. Don't believe the dice calculator method! If you're building a strategy where going first or choosing sides is super valuable, WIP 17 on your LT still does generally double the chances of you winning the initiative roll. A 30% chance of your plan going wrong isn't ideal, so you have to plan to go first AND second.
That also ends up begging the question, would your strategy be so dependant on winning that Lt roll if you had 60 extra (linkable) points to put more useful troops into? Moreover, how screwed are you on the ~35% chance that your 60 point investment in that strategy goes wrong if you do need to invest so heavily into it?
