AHDs had a bigger problem in not that AHDs were crap, but AHDs were placed on alot of crap profiles like the Zerat. There were way more crap AHD carriers than good ones and that's partially a big fault of CB that caused this perception problem. AHDs when paired with camo state carriers were extremely effective in being a disruptive force, but they needed that camo to provide the protection to buy time so the KHDs could open the board up for them to control.
Come now, you're building trenches around your minds and closing the gates. Jazz is a great hacker, but she's not alone in the machinery that makes this up. You can positively ruin someone's evening without having Jazz in your CJC list. She's not even integral to what makes it annoying to play against, although she does have what's needed to combat an Anathematic hacker list while most hackers don't, so addressing her any more than CB has already done hardly will matter. Yes. So what? That's like accusing PanO of frequently using TAGs or Yu Jing of being a bit horny on the old power armours. Like I wrote, I'd like to see hackers be incentivised to be out and about on the table, but we're not going to fix anything by replacing one non-interactive game play loop with another.
I don't disagree. But more factions *should* have those tools. You could definitely White Noise it. Hell, I'm pretty sure a combi rifle Intruder beat it when it got within 16". There were ways; more ways than there are to attack Jazz with a KHD. As I just mentioned, no it's not. Hey, how about you stop intentionally shitting up the discussion and conflating my comments about what should be with what is? Basically every Nomad or Haqq list I've played against recently has had one. You're hamstringing yourself if you don't take it. Have you heard of this thing in Infinity called marker state? Since the Kamau can't attack you through walls, it's actually a great defense, as well as offense - you can use it to get close to his fireteam buddies and kill them to debuff his hitting power. Plus you've got Jaguars with panzerfausts - just coordinate shots into them. I got a buddy who plays MRRF/Ariadna and he just coordinates Metro panzerfausts to deal with things like a Kamau. It's much easier to shoot even a linked Kamau than hack Jazz behind a tinbot -6. And now you know.
Killer hackers are inherently *interactive* - it requires a roll to kill other hackers, and there's a chance if being killed/isolated back. The whole reason people were avoiding hacking in N3 is that it *was* interactive when KHDs were around - they wanted a no-risk option instead (Jammers etc).
KHDs were so superior at killing other hackers that it was basically the equivalent of guided missiles. Which are interactive by the way, you get to roll to dodge, you space appropriately, and you can deploy inside or under something. KHDs ignored way too much defense between firewall avoidance and ammo types.
The obvious issue with Guided and interaction is who interacts with what (I mean other than dodging with -3). As is guided has two interactions first a hacker (or forward observer) with the target and then the unit with the Guided ammunition and its target. In the first/ second edition were there was no target interaction (no dodge) the hacking took the place of the face to face roll the target could not do, in the third edition the "interaction" given the target could dodge, was simplified with a -3 to hit per hacker. In both cases multiple hackers on the table makes Guided pointless, it is too much effort invested to be canceled if the enemy has multiple hackers on board. Reviving the first option is impossible as it would create an instance of a face to face roll been done between two models and a non interactive model barging in, cumulative negatives have been tried and make the interaction not worth the investment for it. Removing the marker state after each shot makes the investment not worth it, removing it at the states phase is either too late or makes spotlight as an ARO a mostly meaningless interaction.
You're hunting titans with rifles, dude. Stop hunting titans with rifles, use other means of hunting them. KHDs aren't anemic against more regular opponents, so just accept that some units are actually designed to be a total crapshoot to go up against with hacking and instead maybe look at how realistic it is to hunt them by mundane means and what kind of power projection they have when they're holed up where you can't. That is the issue.
Please let's not make this POS unit become mandatory. That's the other type of non-interaction - a unit that's a glorified buff totem. I've really grown to loath EVO REMs :(
Even then would a simple -3 worth it? I mean for a TAG that already has a -6 sure for everybody else?
I could go on and ask you, if you heard of a thing called "Discover" and why the "cool new trick" of walking to hidden fireteam members using marker state doesn't work for Jazz, but I think here is everything said. At least twice if you ask me.
The fact that it's not really a realistic proposition is half the reason we're having this discussion in the first place. Yeah you can beat them but it means you're committing to an all in. You're brute forcing a core link in their DZ, you're all in and if it fails you're over extended badly and straight up lose. Sure I've straight up crushed these hackers before but it means literally charging my opponent turn one and tabling them before they can cripple the shit out of me with hacking and missiles. That produce a shit game that's decided in one turn. I don't even care about the issues of balance here, it makes Infinity boring if we're playing a 1 turn all in game regardless of who wins. I spend 20 minutes driving to the LGS, then another 15 setting up. If I succeed my opponent is dead and the game is finished in 10, if my attack run failed I'm dead in another 5. Fucking waste of my time either way.
Basically as interactive as any other unit tbh. Like link fillers and cheerleaders that primarily exist to provide orders or link bonuses. It's also not mandatory. Lots of people take lists missing certain tools. We don't have to replicate the same programs we had before. I'm sure there are interactive mechanics that could be implemented.
Would be awful to have to bring something to counter something right? Just the worst forcing choices in what to bring.
I don't understand what you mean with that sice I actually proposed an idea how to design a new U-Turn-like hacking program. I just don't want such a program strapped onto that moving turd int the form of an EVO Hacker Remote (unless the TR profile and the hacker profile get merged). That new program could be distributed to distinct Hacker profiles via the Upgrade mechanism as an example.
Tohaa and Spiral are their own thing and don't have hackers. So either way they need their own mechanic, or not. They get a lot of bullshit already with Pheroware. I suggested EVO/Defensive (not really a thing anymore), which Ariadna does have access to. Could be an upgrade on them. The issue is we don't want too much consolidation in regular hackers and KHDs.
