Dunno about the consensus. In my initial post I quoted a post that claimed that Guijia is obviously overcosted. That statement got a few likes too, including Hecaton's. As I repeated ad nauseam, I think that Raicho is a better example of "good TAG but not OP" consensus. And when compared to Raicho Gator is still nice, but it is close and nowhere near as outrageous as Lizard or Guijia. I'm saying that repeated attempts to exaggerate the issue with Gator, by comparing it to stuff that is either laughably bad (Lizard), questionable (Guijia) or wildly different (Avatar) are muddling the conversation a lot, and seem to be deliberate attempts to make Gator seem much better than it actually is.
It matters, Child9, because it's handy to have a grip on the competitive scene if you're arguing with competitive players about balance, because competitive play is where balance issues are made manifest... I'll quote Knauf here as he puts it well!
I'll shorten it down: So I have to reread your posting that I answered in all thoroughness but you won't read my posting thoroughly? Great, dude. You said: "and you're using a trooper that probably costs 30-ish points to attack 18 point Jazz." ... sound like you think this is no good deal, eh? And a 18 points jazz is not linked. I have another one for ya: "I didn't say to attack the Kamau itself with infiltrators, drop troops, etc... I said attack their fireteam, which makes the Kamau more vulnerable. And if you had access to White Noise or Albedo, you could just shoot it." So ... killing the team of the Kamau is any easier than killing Jazz? They are shooting better than her, they are tucked away like her and they are guarding each other like the members of Jazz' team are ... but you say it is possible to kill the Kamau's Fireteam using skimishers and drop troopers but it is not possible to kill Jazz using the same means? Let it sink a moment. "If Jazz didn't break balance she wouldn't be the go-to hacker in Corregidor and vanilla Nomads." You serious? Just because something is the prefered choice makes it broken? I guess Alguaciles and Jaguars must be broken as well. "Nah. I want a KHD in a repeater zone to be a significant ARO threat to enemy hackers." Then why are you whining about GML while always refering to Jazz? Jazz doesn't shoot the missiles from her ass. You can take Jazz without a Missile Bot. "I have a problem with Jazz in general. She's a problem in Vanilla Nomads too." Yes, I just noticed. And guess what, she's no problem in Vanilla Nomads as well. Doesn't break the balance or anything like it. "Oh, maybe Albedo isn't meant to counter MSV units then, just like KHDs aren't meant to counter hackers." Have you read my posting? Three units in the whole game have Albedo. Three. Two in PanO, one in Aleph. With this Albedo might be the most uncommon skill in the whole game. And Albedo only works during turn one. Not during one turn and I can deceide which one, just during Turn One. Hard to use. We tried it, but it was never worth taking. "Yes, I agree with that statement. The issue is you disagree with my statement that is "KHDs *should* be able to threaten top-tier hackers." Again you are not reading: Where did I say something like this? I have no opinion on this. I just said that KHD do not reliably kill other good hackers. That's why you don't hack hackers. I never said this is good or bad, just described the situation. Oh and I know you didn't say you 'have a problem with GML and not with Jazz', it just appears to be the case and you haven't realized it, yet. That's why ... think about it another time. When the Guided Missiles are raining on your head, where did they come from? Did Jazz shoot them? Is only Jazz able to spotlight your units?
I'm sure if you got in touch with VaulSC and similar community leaders who have been playing N4 on TTS throughout the pandemic, you could probably collect some solid data on faction choice and win% across several games, leagues and tournaments. When there are several people from the competitive sphere harping on about certain things, it's probably worth investigating.
And this is a trend I am looking for, another is seeing a plethora if lists including GML and their ITS performance, I am just not seeing it and as I said, it may be because of the pause, it might not be, but I do not think there is sufficient data for it.
Of course it matters playing competitive while discussing issues affecting competitive play. It is though absolutely irrelevant here because, as I stated before, this topic is about "are Nomads getting too much fancy toys?". Hecaton is complaining about 50% of his competitive games being played against repeaters/GML lists. Yeah, so what? How is this a Nomad related issue? I would love to see that. It would allow to discuss facts instead of feelings and limited personal experience.
I am watching TTS games on Vauls and other channels, it is an interesting set of data to observe and collect.
Because balance is done with competition in mind and from the top levels down. Nobody cares about your casual garage game as far as balance is concerned. Not to be rude. I'm not huge into the competitive scene either. But those are the facts. The top end of play and competitive play are the only things that matter in this discussion.
Yes, they did not have an HD+ nor a remote with mimetism -6, but these are not fundamental restrictions Corregidor had and has, even with all the new units a Corregidor player of the past faces the same issues they had back then. This is why I keep saying the bandit is the most disruptive unit Corregidor has in its restrictions as it breaks most of them.
Hey, you cut off half of my message, it changes its meaning a tiny bit... ;) Read my answer to Time Bandit (if you already didn't), it also applies to your message.
There is no ultimate top level, past experience has shown it is an extremely localized effect. I am not dismissing players who play well and have a good understanding of the basis of gameplay, but, I do not see as one meta and one gameplay been the superior to all other.
I see it. Let me see if I can make a logical leap for you. In comp play you pick the best tools for the job. Nomads are the best tool for the job for GML play because they can do it extremely well, while also competing heavily in all other aspects of the game. Hence the players he encounters in comp play gravitate towards the most powerful factions. Vanilla CA, Vanilla Nomads are the big ones.
The 3rd and 4th line of the OP are about Jazz. It couldn't be more relevant. Jazz in a cjc core with morans is the best gml build in the game, hands down, bar none. It's a Nomad related issue.
Well, there is. It's just that since the Infinity community is smaller it's harder to get the kind of massive international events something like Warhammer has to show us where the meta lies.
Again, he is saying about 50% of his games are against repeaters/GML. I seriously doubt 50% of its opponents plays Nomads. Hence, it's definitely not a Nomad issue, and is off-topic here. Same as above. It would be a Nomad/CJC related issue if all (or most of) these repeater/GML lists were Nomad/CJC. They're not. Period.
Interplanetarios, the biggest international events we have so far, have consistently shown a meta to be dominant and it is not the one been suggested as dominant. And I keep reminding that, at least for me, this is for a big variety of reasons, and terrain in its entirety, is a fundamental variable for this.
It could also be worth noting that it seems much of the experience of “Pitcher/Spotlight/GML BAD” seems to be coming from one specific meta (TTS), which would typically lead to the question “what about TTS and its meta lends such power to this combo?” rather than “this is unquestionably OP, it needs to be ‘fixed’”. Brief looks at a couple of the bigger tourneys that have been held post N4 (SLS and Krug) don’t seem to reveal extensive P/S/G. So, if it’s not an “all the time, every place” issue, perhaps it’s as PS mentioned, that it’s simply a thing people use for a while until it’s countered, then it lays dormant, then it crops up again until it’s countered, etc.
