Regardless of comparison to the Avatar, one theme is coming through this thread, as it has on a lot of new CJC units: The Gator is over-optimized. Nomad players are actually asking that things like this be nerfed for the good of the game. CB folks, you might want to take note of it when players of a faction actually say "This is too powerful, guys we have a balance problem here." Thank you for the awesome profile (this will be fun to play!) but please spread the powerful-unit love to the factions that need it, thank you.
You can't, in good faith, really compare them... Avatar has an overall way better statline (BS 15, WIP 17, ARM/BTS 9/9, ...) and packs : - an ODD - possession immunity - an additional order + an additional command token - Sepsitor Plus - Strategos L2 - Mnemonica In addition of course of being, by far, THE best LT in the game. Is this justifying the 42-points difference? I would say so, more or less... Anyway, implying that these two are somehow similar despite the huge point difference makes little sense. As said just above, I find funny to talk about an army with no cheap troups when you can align 6 orders for 40 points (2x Ikadrons, 2x R-Drone, 2x Imetron)... Especially considering how great Ikadrons and how useful R-drones are. And that's without considering the 4 orders Avatar has itself or still cheap troopers like Daturazi. Also, you can fit with that stuff like speculo killer or Q-drone HMG with a slave drone next to it. They are not units I would call "very easy to eliminate" ;) I really don't get all the fuss around the Gator... Is it good? Sure. Is it better than most of the other TAGs in the game? Probably. By far? Doubt it. Quite standard statline and equipment, with the exception of defending itself in close combat. But proper hacking will get rid of it just as any other similarly costed TAG, ECM Hacker -3 is a cool tool but won't protect you long from Oblivions, Carbonites and Total Controls... And it's also just as sensitive to heavy weaponry, K1 or monofilament stuff. If it wasn't in Corregidor, which was already making a lot of people a bit jealous (I get it), I'm pretty sure we wouldn't talk about it that much.
I think the Avatar has got nothing to do with the discussion on Gators and has caused it to veer off in a less productive direction. If something is busted, saying "this other, different thing is busted" isn't really an important part of the conversation. It boggles the mind that in both Nomads and Combined Army Bultrak, a new 'main battle tag' has been released that is just a better version of an existing TAG and which covers 95% of the same design space and role. This causes important questions about a) power creep, b) the design focus of CB - why these things and not units or factions that need more love, and c) why release something so similar to something else?
Simple answer? They don't revise the rules or shake up the meta often enough to cause people to shift factions or buy minis constantly, so they have to constantly produce a stream of new profiles to get people to buy the new mini for it. If you only have 1 model for 1 profile it's likely you won't sell a lot of copies to the same people. On top of that the rules are all free, so the only books they sell are to die hard fans who want the fluff. So their method of making money is let old sectorials sit, make new sectorial. Let old profiles sit, make new profile.
Personally I think Corregidor needed a mainline TAG and Iguana should not be it, Iguana should cover its own unique niche.
If only the Iguana was useful in any way... Also, not every faction needs to have access to the same tools.
It is hardly the same tools, a mainline TAG is a category, as it stands the three Nomad mainline TAGS are three different tools, Gator is the direct approach TAG that needs to be involved, Szalamander is the long range dueling TAG and Lizard has the classical role of long range grenade bombardment.
While I agree, I'd have much rather seen the Lizard get a rework and a resculpt first. As it stands, Grenade Launchers are struggling to make meaningful impact on the board; Nomads in particular has easy access to Guided ML if it desires LoF-ignoring attacks. But even then, the Lizard is in need of some help. Comparing the 74-point Gator to the 72-point Lizard: Gator: + Mine Dispenser +1B onTemplate +3 CC +ECM: Hacker(-3) +NBW +CC Attack (+1 Dam) +Dodge (+2") +E/M CCW Gator Pilot: + Boarding shotgun (worth ~4 points more than the Lizard Pilot's SMG) + 7 CC +1 BS +1 ARM +3 BTS + NBW + Heavy Pistol Lizard: + Continuous Damage on Template There is absolutely no way that *all those buffs* are only worth 2 points; the *only* advantages the Lizard has are that it's template will *sometimes* do more damage, if you get lucky, and its Pilot can go into Suppressive Fire. Most of the time, the +1B Chain Rifle will be better than or equivalent to the HFT (the HFT is better in ARO vs. Multi Wound models, and vs. low-ARM models with 3 wounds). The Gator also gains access to a second profile with the rare NCO skill; a skill worth 4 points and 0.5 SWC on TAGs (as seen on the Squalos, Raicho and Zeta). The Gator only pays 2 points for it (and 0 SWC!). I agree that Corregidor needed a MBT, but the Gator is very obviously pushed and overtuned, especially concerning the NCO profile.
Aside from 4x Taigha, 2 Imetron, 2 Ikadron and 2 Daturazi, that Avatar list really doesn't have any cheap troopers.
I agree with you guys points about this new TAG. As I said in other threads I think that the Gator needs to be nerfed in either 1. An increase in points at least in the high 80's 2. Remove some skills & equipment so that it better fits it's current price tag 3. Do both of these things. Otherwise this can be viewed as a slap in the face to those who play against Nomads. The fact that certain Nomad players themselves are asking CB to nerf the Gator or give other factions powerful units or a means to counter it is telling. I'd among their number too If I was Nomad player. If every faction got certain units who were giving E/M weaponary it would at least counter this unfortunate monstrosity. But as you said it is rare on anything in the game currently. It is an ammo type you'd think we'd see a bit more of. That is a problem. No noticeable weakness in a game like this is bad news for all. That is the only good thing about this unit being released in my eyes. Personally I'm not thrilled at how overpowered this thing is in an already powerful faction and it is making me lean towards not buying regardless of how nice it looks. No need to. You can just proxy it as another faction's TAG if you like the model so much. They should make the Iguana a Merc/NA-2 only TAG like the Anaconda. I have thought that very same thing. It would not surprise me whether CB keeps the Iguana or removes from the game. We are just going to have to see at this point. I agree with you wholeheartedly. It reminds me of that meme of Michael Jordan saying, "Stop it, get some help." I think that fits perfectly here.
You forgot the 2 R Drones :D, ... and it would be 4 Daturazi except you really should actually spend all your pts!
You forgot to ask that it becomes irregular and that his HMG is replaced with a Combi... ;) The Gator is indeed slightly undercosted/overpowered but pricing him near to 90 pts would bring it close to a Sphinx or a Marut. And the Gator is definitely not a Sphinx or a Marut. Even less if that price increase is coupled to some skill/equipment removal.
Regarding the cost itself, I cannot say I would want a significant point increase since I like how our TAGs are costed(i.e. 72 of Szally). But still I can definitely say I would surely put him into my army even if he doesn't have: ECM Hacker, NBW, NCO, Dodge +2", Chain Rifle(+1B). So.. I would prefer some gears or skills getting nerfed. Anyhow, this might be a good idea. That poor reptilian is now obsolete both fluffwise, and gameplay-wise.
I think high 80's is pushing it. If you compare it to the Raicho Mine Dispenser, the Gator has +1 WIP, Courage>Religious and better CC, but no Immunity (Critical), no Heavy Shotgun Hit Mode, and no Veteran. The Raicho seems to be a bit better, so I'd say that should bring the Gator's point cost up to around 78-80, with the NCO profile going up to 82-84 and 2 SWC. But 74 and 76? That's crazy.
One thing a lot of people forget/ignore about the Iguana is that it's a Repeater. This gives it built in defense (and offense) against a major threat to TAGs, as well as expanding CJC's awesome hacking net. Does it make up for the other deficiencies... probably not, but still something to consider
No not really, we don't forget that. Especially now, why would you take an Iguana over a Vostok in a Haris?
the repeater doesnt do anything unless they have walked a hacker up to it, or you have walked it up to something. most of the time they are going to hack you through a repeater in which case the repeater does nothing. If it's close enough to leverage any use out of the repeater then it cant fight beyond hoping the enemy shits the bed on a dodge, because the Iguana really doesnt want to fighting anything under 8" (not that it can fight anything anway). It cant shoot worth a damn in that range nor does have the durability to get away with being that close to anything. If youre opponent want to hack it, they are going to hack it and there is nothing you can do about it outside of reset.
I read "... there is nothing you can do about it outside of REGRET." Seemed appropriate when talking about Iggy :(
I'm pretty jealous of it. Nomads getting a 5th TAG while Yu Jing just got a second a year ago. I'd like to know why he's cheaper than the Guijia too. or why Guijia is more expensive. They have almost the same stats. 1 less PH but then gets +1 Damage CC, ECM -3 hacking, mine dispensers, Less CC but with NBW, which is arguably better than my Martial Arts. I personally don't think Correigdor need it either. Super Jump on the Guijia is nice but I'd rather have that minus to hacking! Oh well.
No courage on the gator, nomad tags lack it as a design thing. But yeah it could do with a 2-3 point price hike. NCO should pay the 2 swc. It's hardly the most undercosted thing in the game in anycase. Talking about a 76 pt model needing to be just 4 points more expensive just seems to make the case that TAGs in general are busted .
