I've been irked for a long time that YJ doesn't have CC oriented HI. Well they do but... well you'll see below how they compare. So I went looking at other factions that HI with close combat as their "thing". So I thought why not a Who Wore it Better thing lol. And we can discuss some of the good and band of each. Note: I know guys are going to say "it's a shooting game"! Yes I know! But it's fun anyway. I made them all mixed fireteams because some of them, it's the only way they can be made. So I thought I should do it for all of them. I took mostly cheaper troops with the exception of the Domaru. #8 This was the only way to make an assault oriented core team in IA and not have it stupidly expensive. The Hulang are not good at fighting anything other than other HI and TAGs. The Shang Ji gives them some good firepower and has the Tinbot -6, but he's mediocre himself in CC himself. The Zhanshi hacker can give them some hacking protection and the paramedic might be able to heal them but it's most likely they will go strait to dead due to being 1W+NWI. Their MA also doesn't give them any bonus on PH, which is only 12 anyway. They are specialist however and the Zhanshi have a variety as well. ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 5 1 HÚLÁNG FTO (Fireteam: Duo) Submachine Gun(+1B), E/M Grenades, D-Charges / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon. (0 | 36) HÚLÁNG FTO (Fireteam: Duo) MULTI Rifle, Light Flamethrower, D-Charges / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon. (0 | 39) SHÀNG JÍ (Tactical Awareness) AP Heavy Machine Gun, Chain-colt ( | TinBot: Firewall [-6]) / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (1.5 | 49) ZHANSHI (Hacker, Hacking Device) Combi Rifle ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 16) ZHANSHI (Paramedic) Combi Rifle ( | MediKit) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 13) 2 SWC | 153 Points Open in Infinity Army #7 Edit: Added thanks to @SpectralOwl While Bronzes have low CC in comparison, the MA1 and PARA CCW -6 make up for it considerably. They also have a E/M CCW on top of that for either dealing with something they just immobilized or killing weaker units. They can also join the deceptively good Bluecoats with good CC, NBW, and their own PARA CCW -6. However, due to their really high price, it makes it hard to take troops for the rest of the force. You won't be able to take some specialists you might need for instance. But for some missions this might not be as much of an issue. ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 5 BRONZE Red Fury(+1 Dam) / Pistol, E/M CC Weapon, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (1 | 56) BRONZE (Paramedic) Heavy Shotgun, Akrylat-Kanone ( | MediKit) / Pistol, E/M CC Weapon, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (0 | 53) BRONZE (Specialist Operative) MULTI Rifle, Light Riotstopper / Pistol, E/M CC Weapon, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (0 | 53) BLUECOAT Adhesive Launcher(+1B), Heavy Riotstopper / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (0 | 13) BLUECOAT Adhesive Launcher(+1B), Heavy Riotstopper / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (0 | 13) 1 SWC | 188 Points Open in Infinity Army #6 Crane Agents are annoyingly expensive in an expensive sectoral, 4-4 move, no variety of CCW but at least DA. Good CC of 24 and MA 3 (which means nothing since their PH is lower than the others). I tried making this as cheap as possible by having them in a Kuang Shi core. They at least have their own SGL with the Celestial and can throw the Kuang she at something first. They can have a hacker themselves or have them with CG. ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 5 1 CRANE AGENT (Triangulated Fire, Sensor, X Visor) MULTI Rifle, Nanopulser(+1B) ( ) / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 46) CRANE AGENT (X Visor) Spitfire, Nanopulser(+1B) ( ) / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (1.5 | 49) CRANE AGENT (Hacker, Hacking Device, Hacking Device) MULTI Rifle, Nanopulser(+1B) ( ) / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0.5 | 46) CELESTIAL GUARD Monitor Combi Rifle, Smoke Grenade Launcher / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 13) KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 5) 2.5 SWC | 159 Points Open in Infinity Army #5 Unlike their cousins, the Volkolak are HI with ARM4 but only 1W+NWI. They have good CC+NBW, PH14 with AP CCW. They can also be in a core team of Varangians who will throw down smoke and are not bad in CC themselves. Also since they are un-hackable HI are they really HI? They are in that they can some of the secret objective cards that need HI and they are immune to the cold in Frostbyte. ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 5 2 VOLKOLAK Heavy Machine Gun, Chain-colt(+1B), Grenades / Heavy Pistol, AP CC Weapon. (1.5 | 43) VOLKOLAK T2 Rifle(+1 Dam), Chain-colt(+1B), Grenades / Heavy Pistol, AP CC Weapon. (0 | 36) VOLKOLAK Mk12, Chain-colt(+1B), Grenades / Heavy Pistol, AP CC Weapon. (0 | 40) VARANGIAN Submachine Gun, Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Heavy Pistol, AP CC Weapon. (0 | 12) VARANGIAN Submachine Gun, Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Heavy Pistol, AP CC Weapon. (0 | 12) 1.5 SWC | 143 Points Open in Infinity Army #4 Really good for the price. Great CC, BS, PH. No variety of CCW but they are all DA. This team has hacking defense and good firepower with the HMG. They also have the ability to have other even better troops join them. Ok choice of specialists too but the Order Sgts. can make up for it. ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 5 KNIGHT HOSPITALLER Heavy Machine Gun / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (1.5 | 37) KNIGHT HOSPITALLER (Doctor) Combi Rifle ( | MediKit) / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 33) KNIGHT HOSPITALLER (Forward Deployment [+8"]) Boarding Shotgun, D-Charges / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 36) ORDER SERGEANT (Hacker, Hacking Device) Combi Rifle ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 18) BROTHER KONSTANTINOS FTO Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Assault Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 24) 2 SWC | 148 Points Open in Infinity Army #3 Really cheap for the ability. Great CC and PH, Good shooting but weak guns. They are impetuous but that means exactly nothing a team. Like the Templars, they can have other even better troops join them. Can only have a Special Operative but the Order Sgts. can make up for it. ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 5 3 TEUTONIC KNIGHT Light Shotgun, Panzerfaust ( | TinBot: Firewall [-3]) / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 20) TEUTONIC KNIGHT Light Shotgun, Panzerfaust / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 19) TEUTONIC KNIGHT (NCO) Spitfire / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (1.5 | 31) ORDER SERGEANT (Hacker, Hacking Device) Combi Rifle ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 18) BROTHER KONSTANTINOS FTO Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Assault Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 24) 2 SWC | 112 Points Open in Infinity Army #2 Like the Teutonic Knights they are Impetuous but it's also ignored. Great CC and PH14 with MA3 (the only ones to get up to PH16 with a hit). Ok variety of weapons but I think the E/M CCW is one of the best anyway. Two half BTS saves is fantastic. But the AP is not bad either. These are the only ones that can also bring in a big boy Daiyoki. He's not bad either in CC but he also has NCO. Oyama is in there because of his Tactical Awareness. They only have one specialist but others can join them. ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 5 1 1 DOMARU Chain Rifle, E/M Grenades / Pistol, E/M CC Weapon. (0 | 21) DOMARU Spitfire / Pistol, E/M CC Weapon. (1.5 | 33) OYAMA Chain Rifle, E/M Grenades / Breaker Pistol, E/M CC Weapon, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 29) DAIYŌKAI Red Fury, Panzerfaust / Pistol, AP + DA CC Weapon. (1 | 49) TANKŌ Missile Launcher / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon, Shock CC Weapon. (1.5 | 27) 4 SWC | 159 Points Open in Infinity Army #1 So, funny thing I found was that the Asawira in Hassasin are possibly the best Assault HI in the game. CC23, MA2, mix DA and Shock CCW, Berserk +3, Stealth, Religious, Regeneration. Then BS14 and BTS9! So again it's the BS Frenzy rule that allows these already really good HI to be cheaper than they should be. Then totally ignored in a fireteam. First they can kill just about anything on their way in shooting and then blast away in CC. The team I made below then has a BS13 Smoke Grenade Launcher to make it even easier for them to get where they need to be. The Lasiq can even be replaced by a Govad who can see through that smoke! Fantastic stuff for only 157 points. They only have a Doctor specialist but also WIP 14(17)! They can also be supplemented with other specialists. The biggest thing is they are a sectoral that can have this core and still easily get up to 15 orders with good troops. Not just cheap cheerleaders. Edit: I forgot to mention the Regeneration, which now doesn't need them to go unconscious. They can go down a wound and get it back at the end of the turn. Even if they fail that, there's the doctor just in case. ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 5 ASAWIRA (Doctor [+3]) Boarding Shotgun ( | MediKit) / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 36) ASAWIRA AP Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 33) ASAWIRA AP Spitfire, Nanopulser / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (1.5 | 39) MUYIB Rifle, Grenade Launcher, Smoke Grenade Launcher / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1 | 24) LASIQ (Forward Observer, X Visor) Viral Rifle, Light Shotgun, Flash Pulse ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 25) 2.5 SWC | 157 Points Open in Infinity Army Alternatively there's this too. ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 5 ASAWIRA AP Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 33) ASAWIRA AP Spitfire, Nanopulser / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (1.5 | 39) ASAWIRA (Doctor [+3]) AP Rifle, Light Shotgun ( | MediKit) / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 36) GHULAM (NCO) Rifle, Grenade Launcher, Smoke Grenade Launcher / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1 | 15) BARID (Hacker, Killer Hacking Device [UPGRADE: Trinity (-3)]) Rifle, Pitcher ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 15) 2.5 SWC | 138 Points Open in Infinity Army Runner up Not able to form a core team but still assault oriented CC troops. They are fairly expensive for only a 3-man team. But they hit hard! Almost 3 wounds each and can bring a medic along with them. ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 3 KIEL-SAAN FTO (Special Fireteam: Triad) Red Fury, Panzerfaust / Heavy Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (1.5 | 46) KIEL-SAAN FTO (Special Fireteam: Triad) Mk12, Panzerfaust / Heavy Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 46) KAAURI Sentinel (Paramedic) Combi Rifle, E/M Mines ( | MediKit [+1B]) / Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (0 | 16) 1.5 SWC | 108 Points Open in Infinity Army While they are technically not HI, they have ARM3 and 2 Wounds. These guys can hurt anyone's day. They can only bring one wildcard specialist or take a few more hard hitters. They have that horrible mix of Martial Arts + NBW. So all of those guys above are screwed in some way. Then all AP+Shock to take out little or big. Considering they are un-hackable on top of everything else. They might be #2 instead. They are also in a sectoral that can get up to 15 orders easily ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 5 WULVER Heavy Shotgun, Grenades / Pistol, AP + Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 28) WULVER Mk12, Grenades / Pistol, AP + Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 33) WULVER AP Spitfire, Grenades / Pistol, AP + Shock CC Weapon. (1 | 36) "FIRSTSTRIKE" DONN T2 Rifle, Grenades / Heavy Pistol, T2 CC Weapon. (0 | 32) ISOBEL McGREGOR T2 Rifle, D-Charges, E/M Mines, Flash Pulse / Assault Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 24) 1.5 SWC | 153 Points Open in Infinity Army
That's not small! lol. I'll fix that. I changed the HRL to Konstantinos. He's as cheap and a specialist.
Thoughts A handful of characters should get Immunity: NBW. (Musashi, Liang Kai, Adil, Shona, maybe like 2 others. SP has Ajax they dont need to give anyone Immunity) Yu Jing CC comparable to Knights in each sectorial. Yu Jing HI should not be MI...
I made a similar thread about much the same content a while back, although more specifically from the lense of the Crane. https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threads/comparing-crane-contemporaries.40367/ Our bird brain boy does very poorly in all these comparisons, but a few other troopers worth adding to the discussion are Sheskiin and UKR. Both aren't technically HI, but they come with all the benefits, none of the downsides, and a huge amount of extra perks that make them far outperform the competition as far as strong melee HI go. I'd say Sheskiin, UKR, and the Asawira are absolute top of class in that regard. The Crane would be bottom tier for melee-competent HI doorkickers.
Not really seen much talk of the HI Sheskiin, how would you work one into a team ? What I am reading from this thread is - they really should bring out a box of Asawira ... and soon ... please :)
Oh, HI Sheskiin is trash. Even if she cost the same as her LI counterpart, the LI version would still be better. I was specifically talking about LI Sheskiin.
Sheskin is great but She like Achilles and McMurough are one-man armies and characters. I'm talking about regular troops with a few possible wildcards. Some of them ARE the wild cards (Crane, Asawira, etc.) There's a lot of things I wish I had but these are what we've got. And as of now the Asawira pretty damn good for just about anything. AP Rifles and Spitfires with BS14 and light Shotguns, Then PH15 DA CCW with CC23. Then ARM4 BTS9 on top of that. Who needs a tinbot? Oh say hello to my Barid friends with extra special Trinity. Oh then you put a wound one, but oh wait, it's back at the end of end of the turn! I would play this. ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 10 1 ASAWIRA AP Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 33) ASAWIRA AP Spitfire, Nanopulser / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (1.5 | 39) ASAWIRA (Doctor [+3]) Boarding Shotgun ( | MediKit) / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 36) GHULAM (NCO) Rifle, Grenade Launcher, Smoke Grenade Launcher / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1 | 15) BARID (Lieutenant, Hacker, Hacking Device) Rifle, Pitcher ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1 | 17) MUYIB (Tactical Awareness, X Visor) Spitfire, D-Charges ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 34) LASIQ (Forward Observer, X Visor) Viral Rifle, Light Shotgun, Flash Pulse ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 25) LEILA SHARIF (Hacker) Shock Marksman Rifle, E/M Mines, D-Charges / Breaker Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 20) FIDAY Rifle, Light Shotgun, Shock Mines, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 27) FARZAN (Chain of Command) Boarding Shotgun, Shock Mines / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 28) GROUP 2 4 2 DAYLAMI (Camouflage [1 Use], Infiltration) Light Shotgun, Panzerfaust / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 8) DAYLAMI (Camouflage [1 Use], Infiltration) Light Shotgun, Panzerfaust / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 8) MUTTAWI'AH Chain Rifle, E/Marat / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 5) MUTTAWI'AH Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Breaker Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 5) 5 SWC | 300 Points Open in Infinity Army
But Sheskiin is a wildcard, and she only costs 5 points more than a Crane. She's totally comparable. Unknown Ranger, as well. They're close enough to the Crane that you can't just disregard them from the same conversation just because they're that much better. The space they occupy is very similar, it just highlights how bad the Crane is. The Asawira manages to work here because he's got a way better stat line while being 10 points cheaper, and he can hang around with those two big dogs just fine.
For what it's worth, I've faced LI Sheeskin quite a bit during N3* and pretty much the only time I've seen her completely flub has been when she was put into a fireteam. * N4 has been weird due to the plague and TTS allows people to try other stuff than they have minis for so I have had very few games versus Sheesy in N4
Well, yes, Sheskiin is a bit unique in that she probably gets better results when she's not held back by a fireteam, and Shasvastii fireteams are often middling enough that investing into that just to stack bonuses on her takes away from the rest of their costly options. But she's just that good. But the price points, armaments, and statlines come close enough that I'd still consider them comparable. Sheskiin being so incredibly capable isn't a disqualifer for her, it's an indictment on the Crane (and his cost).
Maybe, but the Crane is reasonably compared to the likes of Hsien, Aquila, Gwailos, kinda Suryats, and most human HI that doesn't have Frenzy. Unknown Ranger seem cheap, but not by an ungodly amount, and it's more a case of having well optimised for the edition skills and weapons. Meanwhile both versions of Sheeskin highlights just how the price of ARM hasn't actually changed, but how most units with high ARM got an unrelated discount - one's good the other's just expensive even if it is hackable. It's all explainable, so I don't see a conspiracy. However, Cranes being pretty much the posterboys for the ISS and Yu Jing are fairly poorly optimised (kinda applies to some Hsien loadouts as well). It's like Cranes might've been early testing for the absolute spaghetti of minor alterations that other elite units would become. After all, they lowered the price of Asawira significantly more than most but still thought that adding AP in front of the Spitfire was necessary, so similar minor alterations wouldn't be outlandish and Asawira isn't exactly an outlier here. Footnote one: I think the Crane Hacker gets a hidden discount on the device. Footnote two: I'd like to see more Breaker in Yu Jing as a faction unique tendency/feature. Breaker Spitfire would be awesome, even if Breaker is a lot more expensive than just adding AP to a Spitfire. Breaker Pistols really should be the default pistol for YJ HI kinda like they did for Monke.
Minor digression here, but pretty much all older units tended to have a bit of less-than-optimised kit save for a real faction highlight like an Intruder or Swiss Guard- things like PanO HI all having really good PH, Akalis being given an expensive CCW they can't use worth a damn, everything about Sekbans and YJ's infamous CC taxes. It also helped that almost no unit save some Warbands were ever armed with anything less than a Rifle for a BS Attack option. Power creep over the years I've been playing has been substantial, and you'll now find pretty much all top CC fighters are actually MI units with NWI+Shock Immunity, Wildcard and either a discount weapon or Frenzy and a real support weapon. You can very nearly rank a profile's effectiveness by its release date now thanks to escalation in optimisation. On the topic of powerful CC HI, Bronzes can join a rather cheap Core, can slap an opponent with a -9 MOD from PARA and MA1 and follow up with a deadly E/M hit, have Total Immunity(!) and good BS weapons, and can even use Climbing Plus to make use of that CC against roof-camping jerks. Their shortcomings are their cost (above even the Crane), the fact that, unlike all the others featured, they can actually miss with a CC of 19, and that the Bluecoats making up the rest of the core can feed Sheskiin her own sword arm so you'll probably just use them instead.
Eh... there's been power re-structuring, but I'm not sure I'd call it power creep. I would hold the Asawira to be the game's most cost effective unit at the moment and they're pretty damned old, so I'd also suggest that release date has little to do with it. CB has done updates to some older stuff and it's often worked well. The reason why I wouldn't call it power creep is that this supposed creep hasn't come at the expense of most other units* who still have their purpose. Yes, the introduction of so much shock immune to NWI units did constitute a power-creep at the end of N3 and N4 kind of made that worse by proliferating both shock and shock immune even further, but N4 also did reduce the cost of the majority of HI and TAGs which made those units, at least, keep pace better. I don't feel disadvantaged when I field heavy infantry any more is what I'm saying. In general it's more about bringing stuff up to par. That's not saying the edition changes haven't done weird things. Being able to dodge into melee is now more important than ever, so having a CC unit with low PH is just bad design now. Likewise, PH stopped being a bloat stat even for shooter units which in my opinion has really helped a bunch of units in small ways. E/M CCWs are the best CCWs in the game, but yeah, Akalis could really use the saved point(s). They still need to figure Frenzy/Impetuous out, to be honest. I get that it's a powerful tool for creating desire for certain units in sectorials and making them detrimental in vanilla/solo, but the power whiplash for most (if not all) of these units are intense. * I write this with a massive, long winded, reservation about what the density of DTWs are doing to single-wound units that rely on their own special skills and attributes to win face to faces.
I noticed the same when I started playing the game, at the begining of N3: many Tohaa troopers had a PH11 (above Human average), like the Kamael (line trooper), Kumotail (medic/engineer), Sakiel (veteran trooper). Even after losing Symbiont Armour Tohaa many troopers kept that PH11 (Gao-Rael, Gao-Tarsos, Ectros, Nikoul, Gorgos...). Most of the newer Tohaa troopers, instead, get PH10 without Symbiont Armour: Taagma, Sukeul, Kriigel, Kerail, Kosuil, Taqeul, Draal...
@SpectralOwl Thanks for mentioning Bronzes. I didn't see that they had Martial Arts or any other CC ability. I'll ad them to the list. While they are pretty darn good, especially with Bluecoats, some of my metric on what wore it best is if the rest of the force is hurt by taking them. Meaning you have no points left over to take specialists or whatever you need.
I've mentioned before and I'm surprised I havent seen other players mention more often that a rubric should be created for CB of which they make all their current and future models fit into one of these categories: 1. Cheapest, a useful body on the table for more than just an order. Grunt HFTs, Acon Regulars and FP/Repeater REMs. 2. Cheap to moderate expense but optimized to accomplish one task. Ryuken, Myrmidons. 3. Moderate to high expense but optimized to accomplish one task very consistently. Intruders, Oniwaban. 4. Moderate to high expense but designed to accomplish complimentary tasks the majority of its attempts. Asawira, Ajax. 5. Most Expensive but designed to accomplish multiple tasks consistently. Some TAGs, KoJ
I also added the Kosmoflot Volkolak. I thought they were WB like the Wulver but they are actually HI. Un-hackable HI but they still count. It only means they can do some secret objectives and they are not affected by the cold in Frostbyte.
