Then did you shadow box it against yourself? The opportunities are available, def with tts to be able to use any factions models. Have you atleast done the numbers to see how insanely in favor of the cc model it is to successfully dodge if they get to use their cc stat? 4 dice on 6s vs 1 dice on 21-24 is so stupidly in the dodgers favor, that an entire turn would be required to kill that 16 point myrmidon (expected average is it takes 7 orders to kill that 16 point model). Even 4 dice on 15s against a monk from yujing would fail more than succeed
Stop it. I think I prefer a rear-arc requirement to a "no LOF" requirement because the latter is already common and strong. I prefer it over simply being a part of surprise attack because its implementation is based on positioning rather than just possessing a skill and state. The biggest issue is active turn use, which... is not a good addition to the rules. Like, a warband runs to point blank and then dodges on 23 to avoid the templates. I'm not a fan of that. In reactive use it could be interesting, but... even if it is a good addition in ARO, is it worth having different dodge rules for active and ARO? Don't think so. I agree regarding 'strange exceptions' and cc dodge suddenly failing if the enemy was 3.1 away and so on. However, I think we might disagree on how effective a close range dodge should be. I don't see an issue with scary CC guys getting a scary dodge chance. I don't feel that an Asawira should have a 'reasonable' chance of getting into CC, but instead a very good one, given the short range and unique nature of this type of ARO as opposed to templates or shots. However it is achieved, I like the idea of CC models projecting their CC threat more effectively in ARO. I think its fine to suggest some on-table theory and willingness to test. But I hard disagree with the notion that every idea requires playtesting first. We want to make dialogue as easy as possible. Playtesting should come after weeding out the worst ideas via discussion. I ran through a simple scenario on TTS just now; Spoiler A morlock is guarding a corridor where a Sukuel fireteam is approaching. With standard tools he does a reasonable job guarding it already - a chain inflicts an auto hit. Smoke is slightly favored against the Sukuel in its bad rangeband. The dodge into CC is pretty dicey. Adding a CCDodge or other improved dodge vastly improves the Morlocks ability to zone the 3" bubble immediately around him. 13% vs 63% to dodge on 23. In this scenario, it was easy to bypass the death bubble by simply stepping around him at 4" range. Because that might bring you into LoF of other pieces, this makes defense more interesting than it was in a scenario where the Morlock dodged less effectively. For me, this capability is fine. Maybe even desirable. Whether a CC dodge is the way to do it, melee threats being really scary at really short ranges is something that I think would add to the game rather than detract. Its very similar to how they are very scary at base contact, simply extending the threat range where they can apply that level of power or something similar.
Alright man, just calm down for second, it seems like you are under a couple of wrong impressions. The first is I gave multiple options because I havent had the chance to try everything, but options give breadth of variability as well. It's not like we are just trying one thing at a time, multiple options at varying points of declaration and resolution create alot of possible results so we cant easily discern what is the right path. Secondly, it seems like you are under the impression that these CC troops will always get to use their CC attribute to dodge. I've been leaning heavily toward they can only dodge with their CC attribute within their dodge range after measuring in the resolution step, 3-4". Why would you stay that close to them in your active turn, the point is to make their CC an area denial and so they cant just be easily DTWd. Plus, if we add in the caveat that they must have LoF, well LoF and within 3-4" at the resolution step, is powerful only in a bottleneck, which is the point, other than that it's still a shooters game. I just want CC to be a little more viable, especially in ARO. Let's look at the active turn for these kinds of troops. Let's say their move is 4" and their dodge distance is 4". If they dodge from outside of LoF to within their dodge range using PH with their 1st order, one might think this is an unfair setup if they dont think it through. With the second order, the CC troop is already within walking distance so if he declared dodge and then move or move and then CC at this range, he'll still use his CC attribute. But if hes going up against a DTW user, it's a shit trade and as it stands DTWs are a hard counter to everyone. This game is supposed to be rock paper scissor. At least this way, for one extra order,resulting in the minimum expenditure of 3 orders in my example, the CC troop can get in range to use the CC dodge and then with the third order declare CC attack without ever trading wounds. 3 orders to avoid a template is fair and that's assuming you succeed at the first dodge from outside of LoF which means its PH instead of CC attribute. Remember the requirements we're working with in this example are must be within dodge range and must have LoF. This means the points spent on the CC attribute now have a active effect on the reactive turn with the tiny LoF + dodge range bubble of these troops. As far as I can tell, it's fairand more leads to more dynamic play.
Looking at how short his range is it feels like this is a no brainer and really it will just make CC troops better door guards with a minimal effect on corners...
Except if this is available in active turn as well, then dtw at a corner is completely countered by the active trooper getting to within 3-4 inches of the enemy and dodging perfectly into melee. Even a bs 11 shotgun solid slug aro loses to a monk 17% to 72% in monk's favor. So let's talk about justas aro, because this completely invalidates aro dtws as a cc specialist. So if it is available as active turn engage, then it makes cc stronger in active turn and not just reactive. The big thing is we have seen engage in n3. This recommendation is just n3 engage where the cc specialist will overwhelming be favored to win if they are allowed to declare it. There are no "choices", if the cc specialist is allowed to declare it, they will, and then the target they declared it on is dead unless they themselves is as strong cc specialist.
At the expense of a minimum of 3 orders to get within range because templates 8-10.5 inches... why does everything have to be a wound trade? And yeah generally speaking, CC troops dont want to be in CC with other CC troops. I think it is more a rock paper scissors nuance issue than "this is op" issue.
