What if when you attacked someone in CC from their rear arc for the first time it applied -3 penalty to the target. I believe it used to be like this before. Feel free to make up your mind about whether it has to be in the order you engage so people cant just be dodging into CC expecting to apply this penalty in the next order. I mean, we dont even allow an ARO for being shot in the back and shooting has burst but CC doesnt have burst and always grants 360 lof. You can make it where after the order of the attack, if the defender survives they have to stay engaged but can change facing so they cant get hanged up on from the rear. Just anything to make CC a little more enticing. Like I really wish that if someone was in your dodge range and you declared you're dodging to engage that you could use your CC attribute, even at a penalty it would still be great, it's still 1 die but it's not the abysmal ph dodge all the time. Alternatively they could make a new skill for a handful of units or just apply martial arts to dodge to engage as long as they are in range to engage when declared. This would really differentiate that MA is a defensive skill and Berserk is an offensive skill. You can even give it a LoF requirement as well. Plus, we already have BS Attacks that use PH and WIP. This way CC can actually be a defensive tool against being attacked within a certain range but if you are in range at the end of the order then you do have to engage and if you're not in range you still have to dodge toward the target. If CC is a tool in the toolkit then it should be as flexible as the other tools.
This would open up new avenues of defense as well. People wouldnt be able to so easily smoke and intuitive attack or msv template you. Plus we've all see the videos of knife vs gun training, an untrained non athletic person can reach another person 20 feet away in the same time they can draw. Telling me these scifi infinity special forces cant cover 10- 15 feet in the same time someone can draw a bead on em. If anyone at CB is reading, please make this happen. Make CC a viable ARO threat instead of just something someone doesnt want to spend orders on if you're also good at it.
I disagree. We cannot have cc be used even with a penalty, because certain model's cc stats are huge. Oniwaban/achilles are sitting on cc 24ish with a -6 penalty to be shot at. So if we do a -6 penalty to their cc, then they are 1 die on 18s (21 if you allow martial arts to be allowed) vs 3 dice at around 6s, 9s if you can get them outside cover (which is kinda hard to do with the changes to how cover works). the chances that the oniwaban would then enter cc with you, and then from there either be unkillable or they successfully kill the poor trooper they engaged with is extremely high. To the point that high cc warbands would be stupidly strong as they would all be dodging on 15+ (for even the most pathetic of cc fighters). If no martial arts is allowed, then this is just a conversation to buff up cc models, irregardless of them using martial arts or not. if the penalty is to significant, then effectively there is no difference using their ph or their cc stat for a lot of models, and then why not just buff the ph (or give +dodge mods) to the few models that in line for this buff and change none of the underlining rules. MA is not a defensive skill, berserk is the reckless skill where you are aiming to piece trade, both models die, but the berserker is worth less or is less important in this scenario. MA when the target does not have it (or natural born warrior) is just a guaranteed kill. Most MA's are sitting at cc 20+ and their targets are 13-18 (10-15 after MA mods). and so the chances of winning are so high that outside of a dtw doing a piece trade, that the cc specialist will end up killing who ever they touched.
I'm pretty sure that the "CC dodge" has been suggested before. I would like to see it trialed. I feel it is unlikely to be too potent because of the very short range, and likely to end up with models such as ninja being a more interesting "ARO" piece that is currently unexplored design space. It is also a potential solution to how templates dunk all over CC at the current time. I think I'd probably recommend against applying MA to it but thats arguing the details rather than the big picture. I used to be all over the idea of making CC more detailed but have swung a little in the other direction. A -3 mod could be interesting. I would make it the order they move base to base so that nothing needs to be 'remembered'. Would support that rule being trialed.
Well, thanks for the actual discussion for starters. Ninjas and Oniwaban were precisely what I had in mind and, no I dont think 3-4 inches is game breaking. It allows for some CC people to actually close off a corner or walkway instead of getting pasted without at least also killing the other guy. Unexplored design space is right. I think the game would benefit greatly from it since it already has such a huge build on CC but CC unlike BS or WIP offers zero Reactive turn threat on it's own, being dependent on engaging or the enemy wanting to CC you which means they are most likely to spank you. And I'm aware Guard exists but Guard is a strait up attack with BSG range... Thank you for understanding it's not about the details but the premise. And actually, I feel like for everyone's discussions, we just need to establish the premise first. Which is actually what I was trying to do in the other thread. A negative 3 for the CC unit to apply to the CC attribute based dodge, right? Not -3 for the shooter? Also, I didnt follow the part "the order that they move base to base so that nothing need to be remembered.".
Um well, MA in real is actually a defensive skill set, the whole point of it is referred to as self defense, and its training involves dodging. Deflecting and blocking attacks. But back to the CC being used to engage, you make some good points but didnt cover every possibility. If we just give Dodge+3, that means that even outside of 3-4" they will still Dodge +3. Meaning they are way better. If we keep it limited to dodge range when measuring distances for mods then it keeps how effective this is limited to only if they can engage. And I'll be honest, nobody likes not using an Oniwaban in the reactive turn fornthe amount of points it costs. A small dtw is still outside dodge range and 4 dice from a spitfire with bs12 is still better than 1 die on ph12 in cover. The ph 12 has to land 1 die between 6 and 12 because 5 and below can beat and they have a 40% chance to fail and hope the spitfire doesnt crit. Putranging the Oniwaban is easy too. And lastly people use dodge as a last resort in the reactive turn because they like to feel like their ARO unit is deadly. People generally arent afraid of an Oniwaban in the reactive turn especially after its revealed. But because they are unlikely to kill anything and likely to be killed people will tell you not to use it in ARO. I think the worst scenario I'd accept is CC-6 for that dodge roll, remember, for the Oniwaban, you'd have to be within 4 inches of it when you're measuring distances. The order of events will almost always be this, you move within range, it reveals itself to declare dodge, you're like "oh fuck oh fuck oh fuck" then realize you have a second skill to declare and decide you'll just get out of range by declaring move again and backpedaling. Congrats, the Oniwaban served as a deterrent, didnt get shot at, you didnt die either, it succeeds or fails dodge on 12 and tries to stay behind cover and hopes you cant get an angle on it. The whole point is CC actually being a deterrence. This works.
there is no engage skill anymore. So for them, dodging into btb and dodging around the corner would be no different. So the bs 12 spitfire would be firing at 6s against an oniwabans 18s. the chances of the oniwaban's success would be insane.
It's because you've posted a coherent thread with a reasonable well established idea and some arguments. Notice how other people are also responding to the arguments and not just dumping on you? Thats because this thread makes sense. Making CC people quite dangerous within 3-4" is very different than making them dangerous in B2B and and a kind of... semi-threat within 3-4". It's another interesting approach to area denial to go alongside mines, repeaters etc and I think it warrants further discussion. I understand it because this is what I was telling you to do in your last thread. This section is in reference to the "-3 for a back attack" concept. Sorry I didn't make that clear. If you have a -3 mod for a back attack, I'd argue that it should be only applied in the exact order in which they make base contact. That way you don't have to remember that they have a negative mod 'saved up' for some future first attack that they make.
I don't think thats necessarily a problem, particularly on an expensive and fragile CC unit like an Oniwaban. If models can zone the area immediately adjacent to them with CC that might be an interesting form of area defense. Currently they don't really do it well enough - or at least, the expensive ones don't. I'm just saying, don't write it off straight away. Maybe its too much, maybe the answer is a more modest dodge boost or no change at all. But I feel the discussion is warrented.
again, there is no engage, so they are not zoning an area. At effective ph of 18 against bs 6 due to mimitism, they have a 60% chance to dodge, a 15% nothing happens, and a 25% chance to get hit by a bullet. it will take you on average 4 orders to kill one as it is constantly dodging away. which means on average it is capable of moving between 6 and 12 inches before dying. this is to do 1 wound to the target. if the model has multiple wounds, like Achilles, killing him would be a nightmare. Statistically needing 6orders to kill achilles, out of cover, where he has no ability to get into total cover. is obscene for cc models not doing well enough, I disagree. Models like the oniwaban are amazing. same with yojimbo, and a lot of high cc models in jsa. aleph has powerful cc models like achilles, all of steel, andromeda that are all great, even unknown ranger is absolutely bonkers. Most factions run some variation of their warband unit. And a lot of factions do not have expensive cc units, so running them is impossible.
Hmm, engage is a good point. They are still zoning though, keeping models out of their 3-4" bubble which is likely a chokepoint to a larger area. I think its an interesting idea. As for the numbers, I'm not following "effective PH 18 against BS 6 due to mimetism". Whats the effective PH 18 about? CC models having big numbers within 3-4" inches isn't necessarily a big deal. If you want better odds, don't fight them so close! Re: "CC being bad", thats not something I have argued. I use plenty of melee units and get CC kills on a regular basis, and generally I think that a rule that made them scarier for ARO might be a worthy addition to the game.
If a cc 24 model gets to use their cc with a -6 modifier for dodging, than they are just a ph18 model for purposes of dodging. if they are a -3 mod, then they are dodging as a ph21 model. why is was saying effective ph of 18. because -6 as a modifier is the smallest modifier and not be completely busted. at -9, most cc21 models are dodging at effective ph15, if they have smoke that is actually less than their target number is normally.
Got it. The -6 is something Wuji is discussing that I missed. I don't agree that dodging even on 24 would be busted against attacks within 4", similarly to how I don't feel that "walk into CC and attack on 24" is busted either. You can always walk away and shoot from there, or go another route (which is what I would want the CC deterrent to achieve). Regarding multiple dodges, that would only occur if you kept walking to within the 'CC dodge' range and back again. Lets talk! I like talking over new ideas and if it turns out its shit then thats ok. But for now, seems interesting for me.
So dumping on people is okay if they werent good at conveying an idea? You really cant help it can you... semi-threat because it's not an actual attack, yep. And yes, good deterent. how is this like what you were trying to tell me, I said I was going for more general and you told me I should have given specific examples... that is a much better way of wording what I was trying to convey, see what happens when you work with me, that's how you get shit done.
Minutiae... I'm open to there being LoF req too but I'd wanna test it, but the point is, you'll measure for this dodge the same way you would shooting, you'll still dodge but depending on the range determines what attribute your using.
Well, JSAs shtick is CC, but in general CC is not a reactive turn trait. Being able to scare someone out of your dodge rather ge because of your CC would be good for ARO troops who don't have template weapons and dont want to trade wounds anyways like an Oniwaban, he's only got 1 wound and hes expensive, he cant just use his dtw as a deterrent and if wait for his active turn, he may have lost 4 orders of his friends lives he could have saved. And again its 3-4 inches for select troops and if Kuroshi gets it then her 5", shes the only one that few could run away from and we havent established if we will apply penalties... we might. I want the game to be fair, trust me. I just dont think it's fair that CC is not actively used in ARO, as I said, anyone walking into CC with you is 95% sure they're gonna spank you. Let's change that up a bit
I think the rear attack was simplified into Surprise Attack. Sure, units without a Marker State and without that skill can't do it. I don't see a benefit to make backstabs a universal ability, but it could be made part of the Surprise Attack requirements for the opponent to not have LOF prior to base to base contact - however, this makes smoke significantly more powerful for melee characters. Regarding Dodging on CC, this is insanely powerful. The one chance that units have of avoiding being dead locked (with emphasis on dead) in a CC that they can't realistically ever win is to layer AROs and templates. Allowing an N3 Engage using the CC attribute to simply remove viable AROs and defences is not a healthy system. Not to mention that it reintroduces a bunch of special exceptions that the N4 system is removing where to declare this skill you need to know beforehand that you are in range, not to mention requiring special handling for when the opponent dodges. In short, using regular old Dodge to get into melee works just fine for e.g. Asawira. It gives your opponent a reasonable chance of avoiding it without guaranteeing it and without setting up a bunch of strange exceptions. It's just the low average PH of Yu Jing and JSA melee units.
What if the next time someone makes a suggestion about how to change CC to make it more viable, that person is required to actually try playing a few games (either shadow boxing with themselves, or with other people) to see for themselves what the difference would be? Proposing a change to CC without being willing to try it out yourself is just wasting everyone's time.
Well, the importance of the back attack is to give it a little extra kick the same as a rear arc inside of and outside zoc. They dont say rear arc anymore but it really should. I like if someone is attacked then if they survive they can change facing. Just a tiny bit more real and more dynamic for CC, this can allow lower level CC guys to take on the likes of Ajax and others. And perhaps the dodging in active turn within dodge range is powerful for the active turn. I dont think it is for the reactive turn as people know where they are walking and the active turn unit can just use their second skill to walk back to negate the use of the CC attribute instead of PH, and all that was lost was one order. It's all dependent on whether they can be engaged so no bonus against a camo marker obviously. And here is the great thing though, all we have to do is say the CC dodging troop has to have LoF when declaring this, now it's not too powerful in the active turn and can be negated in the reactive turn by walking in their rear arc or throwing smoke on them...
Just stop dude. Noone isnt willing to try out their suggestions, but opportunity is few and far between. You're just trying to start shit because you dont like me and yeah I am reporting you now.
