To recap, for non-template weapons: - You decide the point a trooper shoots from (the shooter's position) when you declare BS Attack. The rules are silent on whether you have to select a point that the trooper currently occupies (i.e. any point on its movement path if it's already moved in this order). - You decide the point a trooper shoots to (the target's position) in Resolution. So if the active trooper moves after you declare BS Attack, you can still shoot at them at any point on their movement. My preferred interpretation would be that the position shot from must be a point the trooper occupies when it's declared. That seems consistent with the All At Once principle (all Resolution happens All At Once, but declarations don't, they happen in a prescribed sequence). It would stop the BS attack around a corner tactic. However, there's not likely to be consensus on the question, because the rules don't say whether the shot-from-point can be a point you don't occupy yet. The alternative is a significant change to the game, and a somewhat overly-complex one, but I don't think it's game-breaking. The game has always had various forms of ZoC ARO baiting - this is a new one. It dramatically weakens DTWs in the reactive turn, which may be good or bad for game balance depending on one's views.
DTWs needed to be made less ubiquitous, not worse. This just piles on problems instead of solving them, IMO.
I think your solution is really solid. I also think the alternative is quite gamebreaking. Direct template weapons in ARO are keeping a lot of stuff in check, and not being able to use a DTW in the reactive turn would be terrible for game balance.
I have a bunch of thoughts on this but setting them aside: I think I'll be adopting this approach locally for events I run, in the absence of a clearer answer (FAQ 1.2.1?) or strong alternate consensus.
As is similar to others. I think this is the cleanest in the way that it seems to be played in the way that seems to be the general consensus of games I have seen played and talked to. It also feels less "gamey". It also answers rules wise WHY it should be played this way in a pretty solid raw way.
Worse would seem to make them less ubiquitous ... (if they aren't as good, then they won't show up so often. Uncommon - not ubiquitous) ... not the ideal solution, perhaps, but it does work ... from a certain point of view.
They tried this sort of thing in 2nd edition, Schroedinger's BS Attack (is the attack going to be valid or not, I haven't decided yet...) is completely not worth the headaches. Try that the other way around. The text says: Since the Skills used in an Order are simultaneous, a BS Attack can be declared at any point during the route followed by the Move Skill.If you haven't declared the Move skill yet, there's no route or any points along that route where you can declare a BS Attack. Otherwise, you may as well start spending orders to activate troopers not in your list--they don't exist yet either.
That's my preferred interpretation as well. The counterargument would be that that text is in a box labelled "Move + BS Attack (or Vice Versa)," suggesting that if you declare BS Attack + Move (the vice versa part), the box still allows you to declare BS attack at any point during the route followed by the Move Skill - which would mean declaring the attack from a point you plan to move through, but haven't yet moved through when you declare it. I don't think it's intended to work that way, and welcome the outcome where we all agree that you have to shoot from a point you occupy at declaration. Still skeptical we'll reach consensus on it, but maybe I'm too pessimistic.
How does a CC bait with smoke work now? Trooper A is a Daturazi starting in smoke but far enough away they would need to completely leave the smoke to enter B2B with trooper B. Trooper B is armed with a chain rifle. There is no cover involved. A declares CC as first short skill. B declares BS attack with the chain rifle and puts the template down, trooper A is within the template. A moves into B2B. Is the template placement legal without existing LoF at declaration? If so is the clause "Be able to draw Line of Fire (LoF) to the target of the BS Attack in the location you are attacking it" fulfilled during resolution?
I think that's right, yeah. If A started in total cover, what prevents B from attacking with the chain rifle is the requirement that he place the template immediately, and the template is cancelled if the target isn't in its area of effect. Since cover blocks area of effect, B can't place the template anywhere it won't be cancelled at declaration. Where A is instead behind smoke, B can place the template with A in its area of effect, so the declaration is valid and the template stays on the table. At Resolution, if we find that B got LoF to A later in the order, the Requirements of the attack are met so it succeeds. If A instead stayed inside the smoke, then the attack would fail at Resolution.
Keep in mind that the requirements for BS Attack LOF has changed subtly, if B exits smoke in such a way that they do not give A LOF to a spot where they are touching the template, then A's BS Attack will fail on requirements for not having LOF to the target of the attack in a spot where they attack them. Simply having LOF at some point in the order isn't enough anymore, you must have LOF (or have your LOF waived) in the exact spot you are shooting them at.
Can I please get a rundown of the problem and argument, in a as simple to understand format as possible? that would be really appreciated.
The problem is that people have been using Direct Template Weapons to guard against close range attacks and the FAQ has changed it so that you can first declare shots and then move into LOF to avoid taking Direct Template Weapons to the face. People aren't happy about the shift in tactics this means (and it's not a zero sum change, it seriously alters what troop types are good and what are not).
Ah I see so the scenario is: In ZOC and out of LOF of reactive troop, active model declarers BS attack, reactive model cannot place a DTW in LOF so they cannot use the DTW, then active model moves into LOF. Correct?
Personally I like that auto hitting templates get nerfed and single wound ninja’s get buffed. This opens up a lot of new strategies.
That'd the main problem. The question that arises out of it is: Can the point from where i shoot my BS attack, and that i have to declare when i declare the BS attack, a point i haven't been jet but plan to occupy later in the order... like in this case of BS + move.
I'm going to guess that the answer of "Can I declare a BS Attack from a location I haven't moved to yet?" is going to be a hard no, I'm surprised people are even entertaining this as a possibility.
I don't know if it is stated in the rules like this but: "If you can shoot me then I can shoot you too" (with the exemption of you being in LoF towards me and me being out of LoF towards you) was always common sense in all my Infinity games since 2013...
So quick query, how does this change affect things like the Noctifer w/ML ? I gotta admit, some of the rules you're discussing go beyond my understanding.
