What AROs are you seeing on the table?

In the last month I've played about 20 games, mostly online in the Infinity discord. In that time I've run into different types of players and different skill levels and these all seem to ARO differently so its hard to give a definitive answer. Broadly speaking I've run into camo ARO ranging from cheap and disposable daylami through to medium caterans and stronger Noctifier or HD sniper. I see the TR bot surprisingly often, occasional Flash Bot (used to be really common), frequently HI or MSV2 in link in pretty much every sectorial that can do it (and just 'whatever ARO guy we have' in the others), Avatar, or linked Sukuel missile for Tohaa.

I frequently use beasthunter panzerfaust/flammenspear as the main one in Nomads, with a puppetbot AP MMR as backup. Namely cheap and annoying and disposable, and backed up by other disposable but closer range ARO. I haven't played them for a while, but my CA leaned heavily on Avatar and Noctifier, my Tohaa always took a Gao Rael with symbiomate, and Morats tend to run a Suryat HRL or sometimes a Raicho.

I played a few games against notably higher skill level players and they have tended towards limited or no ARO, with a higher tendency to limited or null deployment and a focus on going first to do damage. I dunno if this is a meta thing, a small sample size thing, or tied into how the online deployment zones seem to be pretty hard to defend and thusly easy to alpha strike, or something else.

IRL considering all my games since N4 I tend to run into more BS based ARO than online, and I feel I see quite a bit of linked MSV or HI. Again, as for this being our local meta or tables or a skill difference or something else - no idea.

 

In a recent campaign/"team scored" tournament. my ARO were two Djanbazan snipers (and flash bot that can't see more than 24" away). I don't quite remember what ARO I faced. I remember Forward Deployed Mendoza in Supp Fire was particularly harsh against my first turn.

As WiT says, generally ARO are limited. Marker states. Impersonation/Infiltrate(+6). Flash bot. Noctifier ML.
My latest game a few days ago I had to travel up board before I could see the edge of some core team member bases.
Oh, i also faced repeater nets where they can ARO spotlight you as you move closer and ML you on their turn.

 

Coming out of playing in RBR, I faced linked Lasiqs and Daylami, linked Phoenix+TR bot+flash pulse bots+ seperate linked Thrasymedes, and Double Bolt snipers in a Core with a Bolt ML in a Haris.

Playing WBA myself, I used the Long Ya, Beast Huntress, and a linked Zhanshi ML.

From my experiences with TTS maps its harder to do traditional defensive cores as opposed to real life tables. I think defensive cores are still strong, especially those with MSV or Marksmanship. They just have more inherent risk due to limited order pool.

 

Ranged ARO is less prominent that I remember it being 'back in the day'. As you mention here I do seem to run into quite a bit of area denial - koalas, mines, repeaters, warbands, corner guards, short ARO firelines near the DZ etc, but I think the OP wants to focus on guns. I think most games I've had I've run into at least one BS ARO piece though, and typically either the linked whatever-this-faction-has or a cheap disposable guy - camo or TR bot mostly.

 

So I have noticed that a ton of TTS maps are very over-designed. They look awesome, but some of them seem way more limiting in the lanes of fire that a Defensive Core could defend and even more “cluttered” than the “american table”. This is not to be a diss at all, but I have found the terrain a meta plays on helps to warp the lists that play on it.

 

Having a few choices of long firelanes is important- you don't want to see the whole board, but if the enemy doesn't even need to walk past your super-castle Fireteam those points are wasted. On some of the TTS boards there's only one or two good spots to deploy a sniper team at all. I've actually found HD snipers to be far more effective on TTS tables because of that- you can put them in utterly stupid places that people don't expect.

 

About the main topic I did this list, which isn't perfect because is "memory based" I actually don't keep records of any enemy list I faced, but I have the intention to do something like that in order to have a more accurate perception of the game and the "attack" / ARO approach.

Spoiler: MyAroList

Warcor* I let this out because I could find pretty much against any list I face. Not all of them bur it could be close to 80%.
Lemuet --> I usually found him in Vainilla or Na2, not as much as the warcor, but he had high inclusion rate.
Pulse Flash REM --> Can easily be found in any list of any army. Almost the same as the warcor.

Aleph
SSA --> No ARO pieces or only Phoenix, or HMG Total Reaction, sometimes both in same list. Pulse Flash REMs. At first I saw too Atalanta RT, but every time less and less.
SSO --> Classic Dakini Multi Snipper in a Full Five Members Fireteam. With the changes on "posthumans proxies" I don't see tooo often the mk2 multisnipper" as before N4.
Vainilla --> Pulse Flash REM + HMT Total Reaction.

Ariadna
Vainilla --> Cateran T2 snipper. Camo+panzerfaust Metros. Tankhunter ML. Lemuet.
Caledonian --> Cateran T2 snipper.
Merovingia --> Camo+Panzerfaust Metros.
TAK --> I think I have faced only one TAK after N4 was released.
USARF --> Same as TAK or against new players with truly strange ARO choices, so I let those out of the "aro-confronted-list".
Kosmo --> Volkolat ML in a Five Member Fireteam, Zenit-7 AP snipper rifle.

Panoceania

Sometimes "TechBee" instead Warcor. Sometimes both.

Vainilla --> I can't remember the last time I played against it.
NCA --> I didn't play against NCA since N4.
Acontecimento --> Classic Multisnipper baghmari in a full fireteam members (regulares) + Pulse Flash REM.
Varuna --> I haven't faced it neither since N4, but I saw some players in my local meta, so I could talk with them about his lists. Classic Multisnipper+ORC Feuerbach + Pulse Flash REM + Helots.
Winterforce --> Feuerbach Karhu + Feuerbach ORC in a five member fusiliers fireteam + Pulse Flash REM.
MO --> NO ARO at all or HRL BlackFriars in a Full five member crossier fireteam.

YuJing
Vainilla --> I can't remember any N4 match against YuJing vainilla.
SI --> Plenty of "Kuang Shi", Lunah and HMG Total Reaction Drone.
Invencible A. --> Haidao MSVL2 multisnipper in a full fireteam. HMG Total Reaction Drone.
White Bannner --> LongYa. Hundun Heavy Rocket Launcher.

Haquisslam
Vainilla --> I'm usually the guy who play with "haquisslam", my ARO relay exclusively on daylami panzerfaust camo.
Hassasin --> Daylami Camo+Panzerfaust plus Myuib Heavy Rocket Launcher (usually in a Full Five Members Fireteam, but sometimes in a haris).
Qapu --> Not clear ARO units. A few "Al Hawwa" unit.
Ramah --> Zhayedan ML in a full five member fireteam. HMG TR Drone.

Nomads
Vainilla --> Puppets in Supressive Fire. Sineaters (HMG or Mk12). Multisnipper Intruder.
Bakunin --> Riot ML in a full five member fireteam.
Corregidor --> ML Mobile Brigada in a five member fireteam. Wildcats HRL in a five member fireteam.
Tunguska --> Puppet in Supressive Fire. Grenzer Multisnipper+MSVL1+Marksmanship in a full fireteam.


CA
Vainilla --> HMG Reaction drone. ML Noctifer. Ikadron Batroid. Sometimes even the AVATAR.
Morats --> I played against Morats back in early N4, but I can't remember other aro pieces than Sogarat Feuerbach.
Shas --> ML Noctifer. Total Reaction Drone. Ikadron Batroid. Mostly no ARO in sight.
Onyx --> Too long of my latest game against this guys, and it was to 400 points in a league... so, not good imput here.

Tohaa --> They are missing in my local meta (tournaments).

0-12
Vainilla --> I haven't imputs here.
Starmada --> Same as vainilla. One time a full fireteam of Nyokas with HRL.

Na2
I face here several times "Lemuet"
JSA --> Keisotsu ML in a full five member fireteam. Tankos (mostly disposable options) in "haris" or "core".
Spiral --> Helots. Tagma MSVL2. Viral snipper. In a haris or core.

I have played a lot against others Na2 armies, but I have issues with the names, so probably I will do a mess if I will try to talk about aro pieces there, but JSA or Spiral.

I have the same feeling here. After N4 was released I faced less and less "direct" ARO. The always present five member fireteam with heavy weapons, which was usually a problem, right now I can find it only in a few matches. To me is really interesting because I still hear a lot people complain about how strong the five member fireteam are in ARO... But I believe is more a lack of analysis or a short range of opponents, a very small local meta. Of course it could be my case too, so that is why I find interesting to read others have the same "view" in that particular case.

It is curious, because a lot of tables I play in TTS are way open than the regulars I use to play in "normal tables". Of course are designs which are pretty much impossible for "physical" tables, but more a buildings thing than LoF. What I found really hard in TTS is to find or to see the LoF, and the distances. Which makes me, at least, harder to play, beause I can estimate properly if I'am or not in the good range band.

I always try to have at least one long range LoT for a snipper, but sometimes this line goes from side to side, but not from deployment zone to deployment zone. So, the line is perpendicular to the regular game direction. Sometimes are big diagonals, but in this case we try to let several small objects, walls, or similar, to allow the enemy to do use of cautious movement or other tools. We need different tables, but we need to keep balance between the short and the long range. Of course, what can be a wide open table for one, it could be a close one. I had a bad experience in one big tournament. One of the tables which I mounted had a lot of complains because all the players which fought in that table found that it has not a single long line of fire, while I was really sure that the problem with the table will be the opposite, to me it was a really open table.

 

Outside of a few insane outliers, 5 man ARO seems less 'good' and more 'the best ARO they get since most sectorials lack chaff ARO options'

 

My recent opponents have been doing a lot of null deployment. On one hand it stops me from being so aggressive and lets them get the initiative on my squishy Ramah units, on the other hand there is nothing stopping me from marching my Mukhtar or Khawarij into a safe spot halfway up the board.

In terms of standing AROs, against Ikari there was a core-linked Tanko Missile Launcher that caused me a lot of trouble. There was a few weaker pieces I don't remember, but the Tanko was a terror. If I deployed smarter I could probably have played around it better. It blew up two Ghulam I left too close to eachother, and with no piece left that could shoot back without risk I decided I would use my coordinated orders to force my Beasthunter towards the Tanko. Either let my Ghulam/Naffatun/Leila walk into the armory room, or have this Beasthunter with HFT walk into your core fireteam with his flamethrower. He chose to save his core.

 

@OP,

I feel like we’re building a sector sketch for the LT. This is a great topic, but I am having trouble learning anything from it other than TTS is a coin flip bum rush. :S

Are we trying to counter an evolving global meta or clarify our assumptions and harden out current understanding i.e. indirect disruption preferred over direct disruption.

I lack field experience, but I recently saw YJ vs CJC. YJ heavy link dropped the CJC Intruder first die roll. Game was over turn one die one. YJ didn’t bring a single ARO trooper. CJC had one.

 

Related to my meta:
Generically speaking we see a lot of TR Bots, Flash Pulse bots, Warcors, Liberto (which works double shift as a good sacrificial attack piece); Dep.Reps/Repeater with a hacker (say, Guilangs + Zhanying, Morans + Jazz, that kind of setup). For sectorials there's an ongoing trend to have 6 core members, just to have the sacrificial MSR/ML/HRL shooting in reactive until dead and then reform the link back up to 5 in active. The introduction of Motorised Bounty Hunter in the meta made null deployment a lot more risky and the organic response was having at least one or two pieces ARO'ing until death.

PanOceania does use a ton of Peacemakers, Zulu-Cobra, and Helots for zone denial. As for hard AROs, Jotums, Bolt ML/MSR depending on the rest of the list, the new Beasthunter (who would've thought widespread Daylami would be playable, huh?). The general reasoning for these 1 die hard ARO pieces is: "sure, but with Blizzard zones galore, it would be one die half the time anyway". Which isn't too far from the truth.

Yujing uses a lot of Guilangs, Longyas, Hundun. So, basically apart from the obvious Sil3 of LongYas, Yujing doesn't show it's ARO game, which in fact their ARO game, because sometimes that Guilang is a Beasthunter and the HD is not Hundun, but a HacTao instead, etc.. A curious addition is Major Lunah who's making an appearance more often now, I guess it's YJ best counter to bear, or at least what my local players think it is.

Ariadna is relying heavily in camo to waste as many orders as possible, they are the only army that doesn't present a hard hitting unit. No one really likes Ratnik or Blackjacks here. Most Ariadna lists revolve around camo'd units, parachutists, Immunity (Total) and some cheerleaders. Their ARO game is wasting your time with silly mines and discover.

Haqqislam also seldom presents a hard ARO unit, mostly relying on Daylami stopping power. We have a player that stands by Al-Fasid, since Veteran and Sixth Sense are good versus Hacking and dodging Guideds on 14s is quite okay.

Nomads use mostly area denial: Morans and Hackers, Deployable weapons like Koalas and Mines, they also don't show a lot of hard AROs like PanO and YJ. Nor do our players play whatever options there are (like Sin Eaters). That said, currently our Nomad players go for sectorials to get access to B2 HRL/ML/MSR weapons and Sixth Sense Hackers. Corregidor in particular is very in fashion.

Combined Army uses strats similar to Ariadna, actually, camo units in the midfield, some mines, a lot of Discovering to do, there's a looming Noctifer somewhere (even if not on the list, it makes some moves more slow to ensure safety). But there aren't any hard AROs to show as well.

Aleph uses mainly Atalanta as an ARO piece and Posthumans (specially the Mk4 HRL). Regarding Atalanta there's an ongoing discussion about her versus Teucer, sure he is a worse shot, but NWI and Immunity (Shock) can come in clutch, this discussion arose because Atalanta feels very gamble-y, sure sometimes she wins you the game by herself, other times you roll a 1 and a 3 and die to a 7 and a 4 on the opposing HMG. Aleph has excellent corner guards: Nagas, Dart, Thamyris, Myrmidons, Ajax FD, that it's very hard to approach them while also covering Atalanta/TR/Mk4 HRL. Aleph resilience also makes this army excellent at defense.

Unfortunately we don't have a lot of Tohaa and O-12 players. We did get two showings of Tohaa and their hard ARO piece in both lists was a Symbiomate'd Sukeul ML.

 

This is important. In in-person games, especially tournament play, everyone doesn't play in the same table, and most times, people don't get to practice with all the tables before the matches. Being used to the terrain allows for fewer deployment mistakes and maximizes the use and positioning of ARO pieces or attack strategies; a luxury you don't get often in in-person gaming. I've rarely played a table set up the same way twice, more due to the hectic collection of terrain we have and how limited it gets if there's more than two games simultaneously.

With that said, most of my newer players were favoring starting with everything in total cover; however, it's been nearly two months since I last played, so I don't know if that has changed. I expect it to be a phase that will change when they get more used to their armies.

 

Across well into 100+ games of N4 and I'm just not seeing any exposed, hard AROs when I play against competent opponents. The general reasoning seems to be that the balance is completely borked in favour of cheap and extremely dangerous attack pieces such as the Tikbalang, mixed fireteams, unknown ranger etc. And in these circumstances your ARO piece is unlikely to waste more than an order of your opponent's so it's just not worth it. If they had to spend a few orders dealing with your ARO piece then that would be cool, but the proliferation of BS14/15/16 HMGs with mimetism and/or MSV has meant that that's not usually the case.

Subsequently I mainly see two types of ARO.

Firstly there are midranged camouflage pieces that usually cover moderate firelanes or the midboard, but not a long angle. The point of these is to leverage camo in order to not die to the opposing big gun, and then take opportunistic shots at better targets. Long Ya and Daylami fall into this trend. Very rarely, units like Major Lunah too, but again positioned to take advantage of a medium lane, not a long one. You just can't be too exposed.

The second type of ARO piece is indirect zone control. Repeaters, koalas, mines, traps etc. Morans are the kings here. These are obviously really good because you can control space without ever being visible to the opposing nightmare HMG unit.

Rarely, against experimental lists or newer players, I see old-school ARO pieces with MSV or mimetism like snipers and stuff. But yeah....not often. I don't think most of those type are up to standard anymore. Remember the point of an ARO piece is to cause a nuisance for your opponent. Make them spend orders dealing with it. Well almost nothing does that anymore because a szalamandra is going to ice your ARO piece in a single order and move on. Or they're just going to use an alternative threat to attack from another angle - because remember many active turn pieces are cheaper now so you can have two or three or four.

In later turns when things get desperate, people usually adapt. I use Knauf as an ARO piece on turn 3 because mimetism and msv is strong. But this is entirely contingent on the enemy not having enough orders to contest. It all comes back around to how deadly this game is now that active turn pieces saw serious buffs.

There are one or two exceptions to this. I've seen grenzers and bolts posted up as ARO pieces. Pseudo BS19 in fireteams is nice. Atalanta too. Due to the total reaction and stuff. But even then, I've played against Bolts on a number of occasions now, and people still seem to be conservative with them on turn 1 a lot.

And what's even mode fascinating is that people are null deploying against me and I play Haqq! Haqq doesn't have Tiks or Szally. It doesn't have the UKR! There's far less to be scared of in Haqq than there is in PanO. But having played quite a number of vanilla PanO games as well, I've noticed complete null deployment there. You'd be lucky to see even a single exposed piece. And I'm sympathetic to that strategy! I don't want to voluntarily get gunned down by a Cutter either!

 

I can whole heartetly agree! I've also observed a gradual shift away from traditional "tower AROs" to the point where I just don't see (or use!) them anymore when proficient players are involved! Instead, just like you said, success seems to come from more conservatively deployed defensive pieces that can project some type of asymetric threat and/or maintain their agency in the reactive turn! Obviously the dwindling number of strike pieces towards the end of the game make more daring ARO positions more viable; I for example pretty much always deploy my Guided Missile Bot in a safe spot to begin with, but I sometimes end up taking up a "tower ARO" position with it late game if the tactical situation makes this a viable choice!

 

Was it common to see DTW on ARO duty ? With the new FAQ, the attacker can shoot-move and avoid getting templated in ARO. But I don't recall seeing many DTW on ARO duty anyway. Outside of some bikers/impetuous warband that haven't yet moved out of DZ. Most ARO was flash bot, and fireteam with B2 ftf guns (rather than DTW). DTW corner guards are important when null deploying but in TTS the player are not always guarding each and every entryway with DTW, some path are only coming into regular dudes. I expect we will see less LFT corner guard, might be replaced with flash bot, mines, or linked troop. Maybe null deployment will disappear and we'll have long range ARO again.