Guts move when attacker is in ZVZ

Discussion in '[Archived]: N4 Rules' started by Tanan, Oct 10, 2021.

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  1. Tanan

    Tanan Well-Known Member

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    Active enemy trooper A shoots with direct template weapon that hits trooper B. Trooper B AROs with Smoke ammo. Smoke ammo isn’t a f2f roll against direct template weapon. Smoke ammo succeeds and ZVZ template is placed so that it touches trooper A, but not Trooper B. There is perhaps ZVZ, total and/or partial cover within 2” of trooper B. Trooper B fails Guts check. Can trooper B Guts move? Are there any restrictions for this Guts move?
     
  2. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    Yes, they can guts move. They can't completely leave LOF (because they are not in LOF to start) but must gain Partial or Total Cover. If they can't do that they drop prone facing any direction.

    As per the 4th point in effects (and subsequent points) under Guts Roll here:

    https://infinitythewiki.com/Guts_Roll
     
  3. Tanan

    Tanan Well-Known Member

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    Does the smoke affect this situation in any way?
     
  4. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Smoke is placed on the table prior to Guts Rolls, though this wouldn't affect the outcome. Smoke can only be used to fulfil the first Guts Movement bullet point, but you have placed the smoke so that the enemy trooper is inside the zone, meaning the trooper doesn't have LOF when you roll for Guts if it doesn't have MSV, so there's no LOF to leave. <edit: However, since the smoke is placed in this order, it will not be breaking your opponent's LOF due to how All At Once works, meaning it can't be considered for Guts purposes>. Smoke does not grant cover in any way so the second one doesn't care about smoke:

    • 1. The Trooper must move up to 2 inches to completely leave:
      • The LoF of the Enemy or Enemies (for example, in the case of a Coordinated Order, or multiple AROs) that have performed Attacks against the Trooper.
      • The danger zone or Area of Effect of Attacks that did not require LoF.
    • 2. If this is not possible, the Trooper must move up to 2 inches to gain Total or Partial Cover from all attackers.
    • 3. If the two previous options are not possible, the Trooper must go Prone, facing in any direction its player chooses.
    Remember that you may not remain in the area of effect if you can leave it!

    Keep in mind what Impetuous rules say as well when moving them using Guts; they can get Partial Cover, but they can't benefit from it. So move those impetuous units into Partial Cover when doing Guts movement!
     
    #4 Mahtamori, Oct 11, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2021
  5. Tanan

    Tanan Well-Known Member

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    @Mahtamori are you sure if you are reading the LoF part in a way that allows Guts move even if enemy is total cover at the end of move? I mean RAW, you couldn’t guts move vs peeking enemy but no-one plays like that. But perhaps some situations are more equal than others.

    Interestingly, failing guts roll against direct template weapons doesn’t allow the target to move from “danger zone” because direct template weapons require LoF. Guts move is only allowed against no-Lof attacks like guided templates, spec fire, hacking and perhaps intuitive attack.
     
  6. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I totally blanked on All At Once. ´Here's an addendum:

    Guts Roll requires you to move out of LOF of all attacking enemies. All At Once means you have to consider all of those enemies' movements through the order. There's no limitation to only be the LOF used to shoot you, nor is there a limitation to only the LOF that exists at the time you make the roll.

    As to the situation in the OP, smoke doesn't really matter here.
     
  7. Tanan

    Tanan Well-Known Member

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    So, smoke is always ignored when making guts move? Even if the reactive trooper threw the smoke ammo to his own feet, he must exit it and move a nearby partial cover (if terrain: total cover is unavailable)?

    I noticed this a while ago. Basically, if you shoot someone with a non-spec non-guided circular template they can never* guts move. Unless fireteam troopers manage to beat the attack with their dodge roll, they will be just stading there and taking those blast effects again and again. Talk about interactive turns...

    * Not 100% true. If trooper is on an edge of template and has a LoF to the attacker, it might manage to guts into partial or total cover.
     
    #7 Tanan, Oct 11, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2021
  8. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Smoke is very difficult to get to be relevant for Guts Roll.
    You can use a cloud of smoke to fulfil the first criteria for Guts Movement, provided the smoke was there at the start of the order and the opponent(s) do not have MSV, but it doesn't provide Total Cover for the second criteria. But any smoke that was placed during the order will effectively be ignored.

    Yeah. Small changes of wording is difficult to spot as a veteran for sure.

    Well... it no longer has a special case like it did during N3. It's now effectively the same as being shot at directly. If you're standing like you usually are with a chest-high-wall or at the corner of a building, then Guts Movement will allow you to duck down/out and get Total Cover, just like against an SMG. If you're standing in the open, then it doesn't matter if you're using template mode or direct mode on the shotgun, their Guts Movement won't differ.

    The edge case is when the trooper is the secondary target of an attack and not in LOF of the attacker - e.g. a missile is shot at a bunch of grouped up Fusiliers, where Fusilier Luciana is the primary target and Angus is out of sight of the attacker. Luciana if she survives can duck out, but Angus can not improve his situation*!

    * Unless you interpret Angus as not having Partial Cover and can thus use Guts movement to go to the corner where Luciana was standing and thus gain Partial Cover
     
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