Those lists are from the top 9 of a 50 player tournament, 3 of which are from within top 8. These are excellent results and to disregard them and disparage the players because they do not fit the proclivities of the Tasmanian community seems fool hardy. Indeed it would seem to be in favour of these players given that Tasmanians failed to crack within top 30 of the last cancon or novacore, and you your self declined to attend out of fear of the mainland despite our offering to pay for accommodation.
In other words "any idiot that runs the calculator" can't do well with what it calculates, because the calculator doesn't calculate a bunch of things a good player needs to.
A couple of pages ago, it was suggested that hacking Nomad hackers with Trinity was a low odds move. I think what got lost was the perspective that hacking with Trinity isn't worse than shooting at a target with a Spitfire. For reference, when running numbers, I had to put a Wildcat Spitfire in cover shooting a Wildcat Combi in cover and in a Core with both in +3 had to inch the odds out worse than a Malignos KHD hacking Jazz in a team with a Brigada Tinbot, but it's still fairly similar and close odds. Obviously, the Wildcat(s) can do lot more to affect the situation than the Malignos or Jazz can. Hacking is just so simplistic. Almost like it's not the primary focus of the game... As a side note: no, Jazz isn't too good. Jazz FTO in a fireteam is too good, but Jazz&Billie is interesting to play and play against. Oh, and there's also a topic about how Infinity is increasingly being balanced around how everyone has OP unit choices that is somewhat relevant to the other tangent.
I'd argue it's still not ideal that she's managed to render Interventors obsolete in most lists. The new thing with Hackers getting SMGs really blows their cost-to-benefit out when compared with older sculpts using a Combi. I reckon a lot of the old vs. new comparisons would be a lot less one-sided if all the old Interventors, Custodiers, and other factions' Hackers got a "Carbine" or the like at a competitive price point.
I don't think she does make Interventors obsolete though. For starters they can be Lt's and she can't, and in nomads you have limited good options of Lt's, of which they are one - and one of the reasons making KHDs always trump other hackers regardless would be a massive nerf for Nomads in the first place. Having said that I wouldn't mind if the FTO Jazz didn't exist and you had to take her with Billie, same as Zoe and Pi Well. That would fix most of the complaints I think. Maybe if both of those could duo, that would be cool.
I think it's more a case that you don't need your hacker to be quite so ridiculously good at hacking (WIP 15 is really expensive after all), so saving a few points nets you similar enough results while improving your list elsewhere. Still think we'll keep seeing Interventor KHD LTs for the marker state, regardless of which. I do hold that the SMG "upgrade" isn't much of an upgrade in N4. Having a +3 at 8" to 16" is increasingly important in this edition now that a vast majority of units have a template.
I was a little surprised about your statement of the Vostok outshooting a Kriza, so I ran the numbers using ghostlords wonderful dice calculator. I could not find a scenario where the Kriza is not a better shot, sometimes marginally, sometimes (due to his better range bands and not being affected by Msv2 the same way) significantly. Yes, he costs 10 pts and 1.5 Swc more, and his link options are different (and more expensive). But I think then we get into a pros and cons argument which is totally fine I guess. One could say depending on circumstance and list composition the Vostok and the Kriza are two very good gunmen fighting for the same spot and have different stenghts and weaknesses, but the statement "the Vostok outshoots the Kriza" is just plain wrong.
Interventor KHD LTs don't exist. I wish they did. I'd sure swap Jazz' ability to link for that profile.
DOH! It's a HD+, bumps the price up slightly. It's all smiley markers to me ;) Edit: but it's not a swap, right? One is Corregidor and the other Tunguska
The issue with Interventor Lt it's the public WIP. If you don't play 2* Interventor your opponent know from first turn who is your Lt. If you go second you don't have the chance to use cyber mask. If you want to preserve marker state you can't use the Interventor for hacking ARO. This are the reasons you usually see Jazz&Billie as main hacker and other troops as Lt. Choice.
Let's shoot one of the most heinous ARO pieces in the game, core linked Grenzer. To quote Borat, "He pain in my assholes." Kriza is 40% vs 25% Vostok is 55% vs 16% I'm guessing you forgot to put marksmanship on it or something. On a slight tangent, mirror matching BS19 sniper into BS19 sniper gives you a 47% vs 28% just for anyone curious as to how much of an advantage an active turn Grenzer had against itself. Oddly enough arguably better than using the Kriza as well. It costs me significantly more than accommodation in lost wages and flights to come to these events. As I offered though, you all know where my meta is located you're all more than welcome to drop in for a game any time. Oddly enough, nobody seems interested in ponying up cash to come my way either.
I did not "forget" Marksmanship on the Vostok, as the Vostok does not have Marksmanship - assuming the inclusion of the evo drone while not including it in the point comparison is disingenuous. So again, in a pros and cons argument this could be included for the Vostok, giving it a higher ceiling potentially, same as for example the better range band for the Kriza.
It really isn't, if you added the EVO in that points comparison then that implies that the EVO is incapable of supporting other units and can't be used as such. Adding the cost of other supporting units to the cost of a unit when running a comparison is utterly asinine. and even if you did the EVO+Vostok will come out to on par with the Kriza but generating an extra order. Additionally, if you are running the numbers with fireteam bonuses it implies you are taking other list elements into account, so it seems disingenuous to leave out an element of the list that would be there supporting it.
OK, I might have chosen a slightly too harsh tone in calling it disingenuous, and I do agree that the Evo has other benefits and is probably a good fit as well. Nonetheless, I think it could have been made clearer in the discussion that the Vostok is viewed as a package deal with the Evo :) In general, and my last post regarding this topic in this thread (which aims to discuss different things), I do find a discussion of different strengths and weaknesses, tips for applications, using their other skills etc. of gunfighters in faction, like Vostok vs. Kriza vs. ... quite interesting, so this could maybe be a separate topic.
It's not a direct swap in the same list no, but for someone who plays both CJC and Vanilla like me it is a trade off. If you could take two Interventors, one with KHD and one with HD+ that are both Lt options that would solve the problem of having to take two HD+ Interventors to play 'Hide the (squishy) Lt' first turn but really wanting one of the sweet KHDs. I'd rather have that than the ability to fireteam Jazz in CJC, given I like her with Billie pretty much close to as much anyhow. Adding only the benefits and ignoring the costs is how the forum comes to these absolute conviction conclusions that don't play out that way on the table. Along with using words like 'asinine' to anyone who points out flaws. He literally said the Vostok costs 'a fraction' of the Kriza, but included things in the calculation that cost more in total to be able to do, and have other costs as well as benefits. Like having two big base REMs rather than one (one of which can't defend itself), costing an extra order (as well as providing one), taking an extra slot, and being anchored to a fragile core that is very vulnerable if it moves with a shorter ranged gun. Yes, there are other things the EVO can do, but doing that is an opportunity cost as well. In other words you have to look at the entire context not just plug numbers into a dice calculator like 'any idiot' and act like that's the be all and end all. You can act like it is on the forum but it's not in a real game, which is why it's not dominating them.
@Hachiman Taro EVO hackers are so useful in N4 that it isn't much of an opportunity cost. I really disagree with your characterization there.
What else do you think it is doing in a list with a Vostok that means it would be there regardless, hence having little opportunity cost to use with the Vostok?
Helping your Hellcat get on target, buffing some other remote, whatever. And because the EVO can do multiple things by swapping programs with an order, it's not much lost. You can put Marksmanship exactly where it would do the most good; if buffing drop troops helps more, you'll do that.
So if you're buffing AD or other remotes, then you don't have Marksmanship on your Vostok all the time, and you're spending multiple orders on supportware - especially if you want your Vostok to have supportware in reactive. Orders are a significant opportunity cost. Especially if you are spending 2 to swap back and forth. That's 13% of your orders each turn before you actually do anything. Then, what other remote are you buffing? Also, what if you brought no Hellcats - say you brought Carlotta, or a Tomcat or no AD at all? Having to bring a Hellcat to make your EVO worthwhile instead of the other good options is also an opportunity cost that is not insignificant. It's also predictable - which is another opportunity cost.
