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How many side games can Infinity N4 survive?

Discussion in 'News' started by zapp, Sep 2, 2021.

  1. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    If only the boxes contained faction-critical "must have" profiles and didn't consistently have like 3 or 4 miniatures that only see board time as proxies when making serious lists...
     
  2. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    I'm so sad that that video got deleted.
    It was a such a beautiful apotheosis of angry neckbeard rage.
     
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  3. Lawson

    Lawson Well-Known Member

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    I don't have a problem with side games per-se, but having seen GW frequently half-ass its boxed games and then immediately drop support for or discontinue them in favor of the next big thing (e.g. every version of Warhammer Quest in the past several years), I would hate to see CB following the same path. I am particularly wary of Kickstarter-only releases. I've got a lot of boardgame experience and I'm well aware of the strategies that companies use to leverage FOMO... but game design nearly always suffers when the top priority is creating something that merely drives stretch goals on KS, and the lack of a retail release is often all-but-admitting that a game is not good enough to survive in the wild. I can get behind pretty much anything that CB releases as long as I'm confident that they themselves will stand behind it as well.
     
  4. Pierzasty

    Pierzasty Null-Space Entity

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    Also "it's got better rules/balance than Warhammer". Which is such a low-hanging fruit it feels like damning with faint praise.

    If you mean the guy burning his dark elves after AOS launched, it's probably because he quietly started the game himself and didn't want to subject himself to deserved mockery.
     
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  5. nazroth

    nazroth 'well known Nomad agitator'

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    ...then CB would probably bankrupt and new players wouldn't even have to expand on their first purchase what so ever.
    Also, there's a load of players who appreciate resculps of base line infantry and similar stuff. There's proxy rule.
    From business perspective CB does what they should - sell same core infantry time and time again, spiced with some new and hot stuff.
    From morality perspective these are all new sexy sculpts, no BS, no GW packaging one hot new unit with a score of warmed up yesterday meals.
    GW in a nutshell:
     
  6. Pierzasty

    Pierzasty Null-Space Entity

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    Someone mentioned the subject of a fantasy game. Even with the mistakes and screwups CB has done with Infinity, I'd still buy in if they launched a well-planned Eternity or whatever the project name was. I'd love a good swashbuckler skirmish game or colorful high fantasy like the Ivalice-style Final Fantasies.
     
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  7. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    Still, it was a piece of culture that got lost in the sands of time! :joy:
     
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  8. nazroth

    nazroth 'well known Nomad agitator'

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    Sadly time and time again CB stated the fantasy genre is oversaturated and that they are not planning on exploring this setting. Personally I think it is a waste. I would sell my house to get some Corvus Belli metal miniatures for a fantasy setting. I miss some really well designed and Infinity scaled PIRATES. I have two kidneys, can totally live without one. Give me an Alt A! Gata skin the game Corvus Belli. Just a skirmish. You need like 4 crews of 5-7 pirates and half a dozen mercenaries to make it happen.
     
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  9. Lucian

    Lucian Catgirl Nation

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    Make it a Maya tv show and you can launch another Kickstarter! With more infinity/aristeia profiles and skins!
     
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  10. Cthulhu363

    Cthulhu363 May his passage cleanse the world.

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    be my guest!
     
  11. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I would highly doubt it. I think you're overestimating the Pokemonitis of a player or collector that's hooked. CB doesn't have to make miniatures for all profiles, and CB certainly don't have the release slots for it. Let the un-appreciated profiles go without a release for decades and let the starters be actually designed as a solid foundation for new players instead of the current mixed bags that most of them are.

    I mean, looking at what people recommend for players starting a faction, typically new players are told they'll want to proxy two or three of the miniatures as something different - new players shouldn't be told to proxy! Hook 'em with the good stuff, then make money off the addiction!
     
  12. fatherboxx

    fatherboxx Mission control, I'm coming home.

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    I'd rather have CB review underappreciated/bad units from starters and adjust them in points and skills. Took uhh 5 years for Grenzer from Icestorm to be good, yikes.

    like make Ayar a playable unit maybe
     
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  13. Padre

    Padre Well-Known Member

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    CB is doing what IMO they should be doing: expanding their portfolio. Many companies learned this the hard way, but miniatures wargames are no evergreens. You can't simply add new stuff forever, just like you can't have 150 dishes on menu in a restaurant. At some point choice becomes bloat. There must be a business model elegantly supporting some sort of a customer-friendly model rotation, but I haven't seen it yet.

    I'm glad that CB sees this and reacts accordingly. Aristeia is a good sign of this maturity - it's a complete product, so let's call it done. Lack of an aggressive release schedule doesn't necessarily make it "dead".

    At some point I imagine CB will have to come up with a new 'main' game, slow down with Infinity and that's also fine. But I completely understand that CB needs to prepare for such a risk and games like Tag Raid are a nice way to do that.
     
  14. borisgreymenace

    borisgreymenace killer heckler

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    yeah, i'd think that the feeling doesn't align with what the side games are. there's plenty of counterexamples that show that N4 releases are still the bread and butter of this company. for starters, all the monthly releases that are 90% unplayable in any of the "add-on" games. shrouded don't go in aristeia. montesa don't go in defiance. as far as we know oktavia will not be a thing for tag raid. so the bulk of releases (and presumably sales) do not support add on games. but all the add on games support the main product. meaning that if you liked defiance, anything you bought there was playable in the main game. none of those models are required to field a competitive ITS list (though a few are real good on the table). N4 is definitely the flagship product of CB, and their releases and side games prioritize N4, not any other game.

    the side games are also pretty good products in a stand alone way. from my perspective, they allow me to play with my infinity toys along with people who will not play the tabletop wargame. further, since i have the disposable income to purchase them, i can buy a fully playable product without coercing my friends and family to spend money to hang out with me. the rules are also more accessible than full N4 or even code one. it's a shorter time sink for folks with kids, long work weeks, and other obligations. money comes and goes but time is fixed. and if these games are someone's intro into infinity, they can invest in them with the assurance that these models are already playable in the core game, which is great for new players.

    now, for the broader balance issues that other folks bring up, it's hard to give them much credence. if you have trouble with Jazz in your meta, shoot her from outside 8 inches with good gunfighter who has marksmanship. or a high burst high damage weapon in active turn. neither are that rare but they're pretty effective. the extra regular order from billie is a gift to corregidor and nomads, but not too far off from imetrons and netrods. it's a six point AVA 1 extra order locked behind an 18 point hacker profile. which works out to two alguacil FOs. in any event, an extra order in the hands of a mediocre player is not that threatening. from the wider perspective, special characters are generally not auto includes and that's a good thing. it means that ITS players don't have to chase the hype to stay competitive. that some profiles are really good is not so bad. that means that the side games aren't just collection bloat for vet players. sometimes, it doesn't align with your faction/sectorial, but that's not a secret when you make the purchase. i don't think this is as game breaking as is claimed. maybe i'm wrong. in that case, please share the winning ITS tournament lists with all the auto include characters and exclusive releases so that we can lobby CB for their specific nerfs.

    and i think we all need a perspective check here. the lifeblood of a game company is new players. full stop. once you buy your 30-100 models to play your 1-3 sectorials, veteran players contribute less to the bottom line that keeps the company afloat, which is generally offset by their great contributions to the community as mentors, gateways for new blood, and contributors to the evolving meta. all vital for a vibrant community, btw, but these things don't pay the rent and keep the lights on. the things that support new players coming on and/or expanded purchases are one off boxed games, intro packs, and streamlined rulesets that allow a quick uptake on the game. otherwise, it seems like the other business model is for us to keep chasing codices and the new unit types that make our thousands of previously invested dollars obsolete. the GB example that's been floated in other posts is also a good one--an over optimized game where units are either trash tier or OP makes it so that new players essentially can't win games, because the asymmetry of knowledge/profiles penalizes them too much. occasional luck and swingy dice rolls, on the other hand, means that they can pull victory from the jaws of deserved defeat, but not so often that every thing's a crap shoot.

    the N4 ITS scene is important to CB, no doubt. still going to argue that it's their single most important product they make and support. their allocation of resources and release schedule correlates to that. but it's not the exclusive definition of the infinity community. the other products allows them to have a broader reach with different audiences and lure people into the full game gradually without making their initial investments inapplicable to the main game. some character bloat and corner case profiles seems like a small price to pay for a steady stream of opponents.
     
  15. bladerunner_35

    bladerunner_35 Well-Known Member

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    /end thread
     
  16. Kyle Katarn

    Kyle Katarn Well-Known Member

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    Well, i can't argue with everything else you have said, but i must admit that it can be hard to shoot this radiant godess of hacking which is prone on the roof in her deployment in fireteam that grants her 6th sense and tinbot, while 2 moran massais on rooftops are providing her wide repeater network in midfield. I can't say it has anything to do with CB's desire to sell sidegame, after all i got her like a month before Defiance, but please, don't make her look like she isn't overpowered at all. Problem still is in her profile, link and everything else provided by sectorial, not in fact that she belongs to sidegame. After all, there are a lot of profiles without minis (Taqeul, for example), that can officially be proxied with anything.
     
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  17. bladerunner_35

    bladerunner_35 Well-Known Member

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    1. Play Morats.
    2. Drop a Taryot on her head.
    3. ???
    4. Profit

    You're welcome.
     
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  18. Kyle Katarn

    Kyle Katarn Well-Known Member

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    Wow.
    Everyone must be playing morats these days.
    Jumping roll cannot be failed.
    hackers can't hack jump troopers.
    No one can dodge.
    There're no armor saves, no safe spots under roof.
    No teammates to shoot Taryot or revive Jazz that failed only one save.

    Really?
     
  19. Willen

    Willen Well-Known Member

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    As a CJC player, removing Jazz is trivial for any camo marker that can climb or reach her (cannot always hide her if she is part of the fireteam providing the tinbot, etc). So tools do exist.

    To counter your cries,
    Hacking AROs cannot fail (she cannot even affect MI or LI targets!)
    No, only EVOs can hack jump troopers
    Dodge (-3) from an Explode X template dropping behind her? Yeah sure, she would be rolling on a 7.
    There are no BTS saves, no way to Reset, and no tools to sidestep her. Also, nobody else has tinbots.

    Everything looks great when it is across the board from you and somehow catches you unprepared, I guess.
     
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  20. prophet of doom

    prophet of doom Well-Known Member

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    The side games gives us more immersion and insights into the Infinity Universe.

    Aristeia! is a superb game, probably better than Infinity.

    If CB would not invest resources into the side games, Infinity would even be more bloated than it is right now.

    The, frankly too many, characters taken from Aristeia! into Infinity is one of the least problems of Infinity. I do think a lot of old characters should be removed, and some of the Aristeia! characters should also leave the Infinity battlefields. They just don't add anything useful and clutter the game. However, balance problems would not get removed that way. So there are bigger fish to fry.

    Aristeia! is not dead, it is complete. That is the ideal state a game can be in. Nothing needs to be added anymore. Maybe some rules could be tweaked, of course. You don't stop playing Scrabble or Carcassonne just because there are no more new expansions for that game, do you? There is nothing wrong with playing Aristeia! for years to come without any new expansion.

    A fellow wargamer once said to me that it is better to play games that are made by companies that do not produce models for them. Otherwise the need to produce and sell new models will affect the rules. That is the case of Infinity, and we can be happy that CB has not gone the way of GW... yet. I definitely see some bloat in Infinity, and the balance is getting out of whack. However, if the company would solely concentrate all of its energy on that game, it would be even worse, not better.
     
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