I mean the S.E. doesn't need a collection of dudes, whereas the TR needs to make use of the EVO hacker to gain this advantage, as well as an Engineer to get use of of his revive advantage.
Most people consider making your ARO piece an LT a really dumb idea, let alone doing it in a faction that doesn't get COC, so I'm not sure how that qualifies as an advantage. Really the level of grasping at straws here is insane that we're trying to argue that the sineater isn't actually garbage because we can designate it as an LT after already going into Loss of LT is mind boggling. I don't think this is something anybody truly rational considers when weighing any unit up let alone an ARO piece that is frequently dead or incapacitated beyond turn 2.
Which have other incredibly useful applications that you are probably taking them for anyway such as hacking protection. removal and supporting other REMs/TAGs/AD pieces in the army. And in the case of the EVO it also has baggage for reloading disposables, such as koalas, repeaters/pitchers and fausts. They are hardly useless chaff taking up space. I'd make the argument that you'd be taking a doctor to support the SE anyway but that is probably not worth it as it implies it doesn't get removed from the table the second it gets looked at by anything that knows which end of a rifle goes "Bang". also on an earlier point you made about base size and hiding, that is a fairly irrelevant point on a piece that is going to be sticking it's face out in ARO anyway. At least you may want to hide the bot the SE becomes a truly worthless paper weight if you decide to have it hide completely, that are a god chance at being forever pinned, die when it stands up or you're forced to waste orders on it at which point I can only assume your opponent dancing for joy on the other side of the table. When Rems couldn't go prone and they had forward deployment there was an actual argument to be made as to their viability, but as that is no longer the case they do not offer enough utility, durability or direct throughput for their cost to justify them, especially when there is something that already exists that is both cheaper and better in all three of those criteria it's as close to a dead entry as there is in this game. The tragedy is they had a perfect chance to make a good and interesting piece in the edition chance, which would have been to as previously mentioned delete neurocinetics from the game and replace it with Total Reaction which would have perfect with the design philosophy of N4 of streamlining, simplification and removing dumb and redundant stuff. At which point we get a far more nuanced and interesting conversation and you have to make an actual choice between the two (also makes BJC more interesting), as opposed to now. It also isn't one of the sub-optimal things that are fun to mess around it as it is just boring, disappointing, and frustrating.
It's better to have the option, than none at all is the point. Hence, advantage...As I said before I've come from maining Onyx so I see these little things some might not.
What you're describing is such a non factor for Bakunin or Nomads in general that nobody is seriously going to consider what you're arguing is of a legitimate concern. The point at which you run out of better viable LT candidates within a list means you're going be so far fucked over the game is lost, odds are you're in retreat too if all you have is the option of a Sin Eater or REMs.
Yep all good points, but you're certainly committing more into the army list to get your TR bot to that better level, TR bot, EVO hacker and engineer + 2 zonds - 64 points & 1.5 SWC
...Yet still advantage. Also am I missing something? Is this a Bakunin only thread? I missed that point, I thought we were talking all profiles in Vanilla...
As I said, Nomads in general. Trying to champion a useless advantage as a legitimate advantage the profile brings doesn't give any of your arguments much credence. It's simply trying to be technically correct for the point of being technically correct. It's not useful in any way. @Mahtamori summed the Sineaters main issue up the best. It's paying a premium on a skill that should realistically be free if not discounted on anything destined to be more than irregular ARO trash. Probably the saddest part is that it'd be somewhere in the realms of a legitimate pick if CB just paid the extra 2 points on all the profiles to bump it up from Neurocinetics to Total Reaction.
I absolutely loathe this argument when it crops up. If that were there just to support the TR bot you may have a point, however they aren't they are often also supporting other units as mentioned before, such as the engineer un-bricking hacked HI/TAGs, and repairing other STR based units, being able to complete objectives/ classifieds (same goes for the EVO this one), as well as generating more orders. You know what else the engineer can be? a potential LT, and is a far superior option, the option to spend that order on fixing something without tapping the main order pool is a useful advantage. As for the zondbots they have other usful applications such as effectively tying up non CC specialists in CC, mine sweeping, soaking orders as they need to be killed to prevent that TR bot they just spent 2-3 orders trying to kill from getting back up and going again. Hell even sticking them in places for strategic warning/look out can be surprisingly useful. That is just with a clockmaker, things get far more interesting when some of our other engineers are thrown into the mix instead. the EVO helps that Hellcat drop in, or potentially protect something with fairy dust, plus the baggage means it scores better in area missions, and again generates an order. counting them in such that they are only in the list to support the SINGULAR rem is a fallacy, the fact they can support the rem is just some incidental list synergy, they do more than just make the TR bot good, and as you are as I said more than likely taking them anyway for other reasons saying that they only support that one piece is kind of a non argument. and even if was just an unsupported SE vs unsupported TR bot, the bot still wins, it has meaningful applications in active, it's faster, has climbing plus and a 360 visor, the SE does not. All the while the bot is cheaper in a meaningful degree (at least as far as SWC is concerned).
Well you specifically stated Bakunin as well which is why I was confused. It ain't useless if he's the only fella left that's not a REM. I'm honestly not trying to piss you off I'm just stating facts, whether you think it's redundant or not doesn't matter.
Which as pointed out is an irrelevant argument to make for Bakunin or Nomads in general. You've lost so much of your army you've already lost the game and are quite probably in retreat. That makes it a useless point to try and champion as a legitimate advantage to selecting a sineater.
Unfortunately, the Sin Eater is all black and white. It just depends whose turn it is. But let me back up; the POINT of my post, was to show that 1: Whether or not the Sin Eater is a better ARO piece than the TR bot is up for discussion. It's not clear one way or the other, and depending on what is attacking into you one can be better than the other. Given that you are in Reactive turn, your opponent has the liberty to pick whichever the best potion to attack it is, so no matter what ARO piece you have, you're fighting on your opponent's terms. And 2: Even if we do agree that the Sin Eater is the better ARO piece (which I DO think it does slightly edge out the TR bot in this respect), the Sin Eater is unfortunately completely crippled by one, singular fact: You. Can't. Use. It. On. Active. Turn. And that's it. That's the entire argument. The Sin Eater is a TENTH of your list, a QUARTER of your SWC, and it's completely useless in active turn. If your opponent shoots at it, it will (probably) put up a better fight than a TR bot, but it's still going to die (as all ARO pieces do). But what if they... don't? What if they avoid that firelane entirely? Or throw down a smoke grenade and walk onto the objective? You now have a 32 point cheerleader. And you can't afford to take a 32 point cheerleader. And sure, what I'm describing might not match YOUR experience on the table. But there's been too many of use who have tried to make Neurocinetics models work, and trust us; they don't. Sometimes they eat a few orders as your opponent maneuvers to bring something to bear which can take them out. Sometimes they get smoked off. But when a TR bot dies, you've only lost 24 points and 1 SWC (if you can't/don't want to Engineer it). When a TR bot gets smoked off, you still have a BS 11 HMG with 6-4 movement. The Sin Eater loses you 32 points and 1.5 SWC, and it can't do anything if they ignore it. The only Neurocinetics model that works is the Helot because the Helot is 9 points. 9 points to trip up your opponent for a few orders is great. 9 points to potentially kill any model without Immunity (Total) on a lucky crit is great. It scares people, makes them second guess themselves. The Sin Eater does none of these things. They simply either grab their MSV attack piece and murder it, or smoke it off and ignore it. Sometimes both! You're taking an Engineer anyways (Classifieds are a thing!), and the EVO hacker does a lot more than JUST buff the TR bot. Like be a specialist, throw out Discovers, count for 35 points when sitting in an objective zone, refill mines and panzerfausts, make Hellcats land on 18's, buff your Tsyklon or Vostok, make a Missile Bot B2 in ARO... Not to mention it provides an extra order. Even if the TR bot gets blown off the table, the engineer and EVO can still do a lot of work. This is a false dichotomy.
Again, arguing useless technicalities as an advantage does not help you try to make the point you're after. Might as well go to the Ariadnan forums and tell them the Blackjack being PH14 is an advantage they're over looking, arguing for the Sineater as an LT option is equally asinine.
An impressive post. That doesn't distract from the point that the engineer, TR and Evo hacker are not an auto-include, you don't HAVE to play Nomads in one way, also bear in the mind you can take the Sin as a mid field guy (despite what people say) for no SWC. You guys are saying write him off I say it aint so.
I would rather take a TR bot with no support than a Sin Eater. Every time. Losing Active Turn is too big a price to pay, and ARO pieces are too easy to deal with to invest that much into one. Die on this hill if you want. But it’s a weird hill to die on.
I love you man, we both share a love for Infinity, we'd probably have a decent game together and a good laugh & a Beer. Peace x
