If So-ra comes with only a replica of the Jujak's most basic weaponry as the most recent info seem to say, there's got to be something special going on here. It would make sense in that case if So-ra had the sectorial's first NCO and I wouldn't bat an eyelid if they also came with a BS Attack Continuous Damage. While a leadership skilled character is most likely, I'm wondering if a hacker character might not be more impactful? The inherent limitation of an all (basic) HI fireteam is that they're just not going to be much good. Most, if not all, Fireteams come in the way of a basic unit acting the role of primary filler and then a booster unit that either drops the points cost way down or increases potency of the team by providing unusual competency. It's here that the Jujak limitation gets weird as it's flipped the "booster" unit into the role of the basic unit and the basic unit into the role of "booster" with neither being cheap enough to fill the role of points drop. The primary effect is that it prevents the sectorial to form "budget teams". As a side note, I've seen some pretty uncompromising Hollowman Core lists without those hard limitations. Mainly 'cause they don't have anything preventing cheaper fillers or making specialised wildcards joining them awkward, but even pure Hollowman Core lists are nasty as hell given how little they cost for their performance profile and gear variance.
there are massive limitations (because of which no one plays hollow men cores aside for b6 memes) - cheapest filler for hollow men team is a 17 points 40mm base model, you cant hide good LT option in it, and the best unit in that team and sectorial in general (grenzer sniper) goes into anything, ie actually cheap teams. At least if you go hard on jujaks+shangji (dont do that) you can put inexpensive 2W LT there (which would've been amazing option in general if Jujaks were total wildcard)
You call those limitations, but all I see are lists of opportunities and benefits. You're not forced to bring any of those units to form the Hollow team. Plus, you're kind of posting on the faction forum where the gold standard for a cheap fireteam filler is a 12 point 60mm base or a 1,5 SWC 40mm base if you want something that is cheaper than a Hollowman's price spectrum. I can't tell you how envious I am at having a sensor bot as the Wildcard REM! The only way this can be bad is if Hollowmen themselves are bad, and they're really not. And yeah, if Jujaks were wildcards it'd not have been "weird"*, but the point of calling the Jujak fireteam "weird" is precisely that they are not flexible in comparison with nearly all other N4 fireteams. * Wildcard Jujaks would be amazing as a sectorial defining feature, but not as LT. It takes very rare circumstances to make HI LTs be something other than a bad idea.
It's not. See earlier in the thread where this was discussed it's definitely a combi rifle. She does have a shock marksman rifle profile though just this model is combi+heavy flamethrower.
This doesn’t help Jujaks at all, but Shang-Jis do have access to cheap filler, Zhanshis. This whole comparison was about taking pure 5 man HI cores not ones with wildcards. I think this was also kinda my point, taking pure 5 man Hi cores is not very optimal in most armies. Poor Jujaks suffer from this a lot as they can only really join Shang Ji, and this kinda forces them into Haris use. Online store labels her as combi rifle.
Well, this has happened multiple times to be honest. The one that comes to my mind, is the Zuyong from the Red Veil, who was branded as a FO with Combi Rifle, when he was literally holding a very distinct YJ Multi-Rifle.
Oh yeah, agreed on that, but it's more that the implication that other sectorials have equivalent limitations on their HI Cores as do Jujak simply isn't true. It's a limitation design they have actively phased out for other sectorials is what makes it weird.
Gold standard filler in IA and WB is a zhanshi because you compare your weakest links (i.e. who dies to a chain rifle) in HI-powered teams. Like full wildcard status of Krit and Tai Sheng made Zuyongs obsolete in IA because cheerleader paramedics are better than giant ass baggage bot fillers. Hollow Men are indeed bad because PH is not a dump stat anymore (so their low PH is awful), but superjump is a useless skill they have a chance to survive double template and are turn 3 MVPs, cheap HI LTs are very good
Zhanshi can't join Zuyong -.-;; They also aren't a HI core, which is what we're discussing here. If you put a WIP 13 LT in a White Banner list, they won't remain LT by end of turn 2. They'll be dead, isolated, or marginalised. Most likely the first option if you also put it in your too-expensive-not-to-spend-orders-on core. (Edit: and 26 points isn't cheap, especially since that's a profile that screams "I serve no purpose but for being LT!")
Well If I get Jujak, at this point it's not for White Banner but would be for White Company a pseudo WB. JUJAK Breaker Combi Rifle, Heavy Flamethrower ( | TinBot: Firewall [-6]) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 30) JUJAK Spitfire, Heavy Flamethrower / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 32) KAPLAN (Engineer, Deactivator) Combi Rifle, Adhesive Launcher, D-Charges ( | GizmoKit) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 27) VALERYA GROMOZ (Hacker) Combi Rifle, Zapper, Pitcher / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 21) LIANG KAI Chain Rifle, Light Shotgun, Flash Pulse / Pistol, EXP CC Weapon. (0 | 21) 2 SWC | 131 Points
I think that is mostly based upon metas. I’ve played in a few metas in N4 and not every player tried to immediately go for LoL. Even when I was taking double Zhanshi, 95% of the time it seemed “safe”. WBA seems to have the N3 TJC effect of N4, where the sectorial was wrapped up before the others and is weirdly inhibited by limitations that many other sectorials don’t have.
I agree that Jujaks have way more flexibility in WhiteCo, and I think a part of that is that WhiteCo gets such a good+cheap defensive core that it allows a lot of wiggle room for a Haris and Skirmishers.
Agreed, buuuut... Fatherboxx did suggest to fill the list with dupe Jujak LTs and to put the Jujak LT in the core. It becomes much less about meta when you put a core of 180 points on the table you're forcing your opponent to deal with it and you're forcing yourself to use it at least somewhat aggressively. Having a heavy infantry core marginalized is a setup for win condition for your opponent, they don't necessarily need to eliminate it, and having your LT in that core makes it easier to marginalize it for your opponent as you can't afford to take as many risks. I'm not against taking Zhanshi LTs at all, I think for the most part that's a fine choice for White Banner, particularly since you can do some 3-dimensional mental headache chess with Tian Gou with them, even if I'd personally opt for Guilang LT in most lists. It does require you to be somewhat aware of your opponent and whether they like spotlight-bombardment. By contrast to Jujak LT, the Zhanshi are cheap enough that using this core actively to accomplish objectives and/or goals is not necessary because you'll have sufficient room for other units that can do this.
See the second image in the first post, the bottom left it says she has a shock marksman rifle which indicates one of her profiles will have that assuming CB didn't make one of their somewhat alarmingly frequent errors in spoilers. @Zewrath's Kokram thread springs to mind.
Oh Jujak lts in a core whooooops. Even when I took my HI WBA core I still took either Zhanshi or Guilang Lt just to let the core have free reign.
