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The JSA Uprising - Model Split Question

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by ThePlasticCrackBlog, Mar 2, 2018.

  1. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead

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    A 5-man link. Or a TAG. Or a Camo/TO Camo sniper or HMG. There are many ways to take him down without even leaving the safety of one's own DZ, and leaving my Lt. on ARO duty without CoC around is a recipe for disaster.

    If I'm leaving an attacker in a position to be engaged this way without retreating a bit behind a screen of mines, skirmishers, and ARO units - and this is a good habit even if there's nothing like Kitsune on table - then I deserve what I get.

    @Mahtamori: that's why I said this will have an impact, I just expect it to be temporary. If I were a vanilla YJ player I'd explore Kanren and Daofei more. Both are awesome units. I'd love to have access to something like them.
     
  2. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    He has 3 wounds, Heavy Armour, Cover, and total immunity, and Mimetism. He does not go down to one round of shooting to any of the things you suggest. I gladly trade a couple of wounds on Sun Tze to stall out my opponent's first turn, once he takes a couple of wounds he can just fail a guts roll and get out of sight.

    He's also one of the two models you hold back on deployment. He deploys in an optimal position all the time. You can place him so he doesn't bite off more than he can chew.

    If they retreat then that's a win for you. As you surmised, nothing much of value is being given up. The whole point of the exercise is to keep your opponent out of your face so you have room to operate on the board for the scenario in the first and second turn. If they push aggressively to take ground off you, you punish them. If they send nothing but skirmishers to deal with you, you punish them. The list has alot more 5pt throwaway skirmishers, Guilang, and a Rui Shi all of which deal with enemy skirmishers very effectively.

    Trying to come close and throw mines down to defend is also an exercise in failure. The list packs well enough expendable models with bonus movement from Impetuous to clear mines.

    I appreciate you trying to help but you clearly don't actually know what to do with this list. I'd recommend going and playing with it while it still exists and then coming back.
     
    #262 Triumph, Mar 8, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2018
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  3. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I typically use Kanren a lot more, both to obfuscate LT and to get a relatively cost-effective AHD (or is it a KHD? Go close and find out). Unfortunately, Kanren is AVA 1 in vanilla, and I'd need at least AVA 2 in order to achieve a similar slowdown effect as a threat of Oniwaban - i.e. in order tto have room for either Minelayer or Madtrap profiles since movement efficient specialists are at a premium in Yu Jing.

    Frankly I'm a bit concerned what this will mean for order efficiency because of the sharp increase in points and I really dislike the increased reliance on Kuang Shi for order generation that this funnels the faction into. Kuang Shi are increasingly looking less like a playstyle and more like your mandatory 5 miniatures that each list starts with - and that should concern you even if you like Kuang Shi.
     
  4. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead

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    Or my personal playstyle and experience differs from yours. It's obvious we have different ideas about what constitutes a strong defence, what tactics have a viable order cost/opportunity ratio, and how to deal with various types of defenders and other threats. It very well might be that my playstyle is simply less vulnerable to the loss of unit like Kitsune, while probably being more vulnerable to other changes. To each his own.

    And yes, I'm trying to help. By pointing out that when circumstances change we have to adapt. Yes, you won't be able to play with this exact list, you'll have to find other tools and tactics to make up for the weakness you see. I understand it might not be pleasant for you, but in my opinion it can be done.
     
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  5. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    My point being you can't help, trying to offer criticism on how to play a list you clearly don't understand how to play is a waste of time for everybody involved. I appreciate you trying, but it's not going to help until you learn what do with a Kitsune.

    I already have other lists I'm building, but coming in here and trying to say "don't worry about these changes your list was flawed anyway" is naive on your part, and slightly insulting when you don't understand how it works in the first place. The fact that you think you can fix things by simply swapping models around is fairly evident of that. That doesn't work when you're replacing a model that doesn't have any equivalent model left in the faction, you need to rebuild everything from the ground up to function differently.

    Contrary to what some posters think, if you eliminate models that were being used at the top end of competitive play from the roster it's going to negatively impact the faction.
     
    #265 Triumph, Mar 8, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2018
  6. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead

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    Feel free to interpret my attempts as you see fit. There are multiple points when it comes to gameplay and its philosophy which we simply won't agree about, and trying to do so will indeed by a waste of time.
     
  7. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Try shifting hard pieces that shove up in your face with a Dao Fei, like a Kriza locked down in suppressive fire. It's bad odds, 1/3 of doing a wound to the Kriza. Percentages like that leave you wide open to getting shit on a by a bad dice swing. On the other hand throwing some smoke and applying a monofilament weapon to the problem is a highly reliable way of removing said problem.

    The point of the Kitsune is to punish and remove expensive, hard targets that get thrown aggressively in your face with the intent of slowing you down on scenario. For easier to kill skirmisher/LI enemies you have monks, Rui Shi, and Guilangs who will deal with those problems.
     
  8. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Daofei is an extremely useful piece, no doubt, but it's no more a TAG or LT assassin than a Zuyong with camo.

    My experience is that Daofei is used against soft targets (hackers, cheerleaders) while Onibawans are for hard targets (TAGs, LTs, HI). Both are capable of hunting the other's targets, of course, but that's not their preference.

    The closest remaining unit to Onibawan is the Ninja, and frankly the only model capable of shouldering remotely the same role, but Ninjas struggle against a much wider range of targets.
     
  9. Disko King

    Disko King Well-Known Member

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    So looking at those combi rifle ninja profiles, I fail to see why would I ever take one? Since for 2-3pts more now you can get oniwaban, who is clearly superior. Okay, you do get slight worse range, although now you can pick between shock&ap and nanopulser. But you do get superior infiltration, so a bit worse range is not really concern.
    On top of that, you get better MA,and cc and most important monofilament weapon, so unless any enemy gets 13+ they die, and you crit on 13+ and instakill anyone.
     
  10. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    If they added a Tacbow profile with smoke and E/M CCW for like 26-30ish points, doable IMO. Would provide that hidden deployment punisher for aggressive HI/TAGs.
     
  11. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    The answer is you don't. The Ninja has exactly one profile normally worth playing and it's the KHD one. The AHD if you're building a real curveball list.
     
  12. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Maybe. Onibawan's advantage is in their high CC value rather than weapon, making crits more likely. Ninja simply aren't good enough and I have seen them struggling even to win against TAGs (who generally aren't slouches in melee for non-MA troops), let alone damage them.

    There's a reason I was making noise about Ninjas should have their role and loadout redefined to be more infiltration and sabotage than current Okay-I-guess Assassin.
     
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  13. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    I found it's the MA4 more than the CC stat, they're only 1pt apart. Ninjas in my experience do struggle against TAGs, but it's because their weapon fucking sucks against them at Phys 12. The TAG can brute force attacks through until they win. If you gave them a E/M CCW that changes as alot of them are rolling saves on BTS3-4 and you only need 1 hit to go through and the TAG shuts down.
     
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  14. Disko King

    Disko King Well-Known Member

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    But still, question owuld remain the same? Why would you use it even with E/M CCW when oniwaban would simply autokill that TAG or anything else. He can even go for +1 Burst, lower chance for auto crit by 15%, but going for extra attack simply could be more efficient.
     
  15. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Obviously if I still had an Oniwaban I'd take that instead, but as you've probably noticed we're losing those. The point was we'd be able to somewhat emulate the same role they play in our specific lists if the Ninja profiles had some relatively small changes made to them.
     
  16. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    To put in cover in suppressive in a lane where it's costly for an opponent to bring something over to take it out. It's a -12 to shoot at in that case which means you're pretty likely to win the roll.

    The other combi rifle is an assault hacker and that's so you can park him on a tall roof and scare HI and TAGs out of advancing.
     
  17. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Simply put? the only E/M CCW weapon right now on JSA is the cheaper Domaru Butai: 25pts with E/M grenades, MA3 and BERSERKER. That means he will ALWAYS hit the target at dmg 14 CC26... or damage 17 CC23, or go for CC32 dmg14, of course.

    Mind you, I'm answering blind here since I don't know which post are you referring to ^^
     
  18. East of Irem

    East of Irem Well-Known Member

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    If the TAG is trying to brute force close combat orders to escape melee with a ninja then the ninja player is winning the game, thats a massive up trade in points, killing it is an unnecessary luxury. Besides what weapon you have hardly matters on a 25-30% crit.
     
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  19. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    Berserk odds are probably the best, especially if you haven't been wounded. Domaru are probably one of the best examples of pieces that trade up very well in infinity.

    Against a BTS9 TAG you have a 70% chance of EMing it with Berserk. If you're more worried about living though, MA3 still gives you a very good chance to crit and a huge advantage in the f2f against most TAGs -- most TAGs have CC between 15 and 18 or so.
     
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  20. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Rolling at CC 23, +3 from AM3, +6 from Berseker... that's a no fail 1d20+12, meaning you win with a 7+ the FtF roll... It's not only one of the best trade piece (the Krakot is there aswell, but much less reliable due to getting, at most, NWI with Metachemistry), but one of the bests melee troops in cost/quality (Ajax being there aswell, but Achilles not due to his cost).

    Frankly speaking, I'm surprised to have never seen any Domaru melee anything in my whole gaming life. Sure, getting to the enemy is a problem, but there are tons of midfield pieces he can neutralize, and TAGs tend to go relatively close (specially those like the Sphinx, with camo defenses and close range loadouts).
     
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