Mines S2 or SX

https://infinitythewiki.com/Traits#Concealed

Concealed
This weapon or piece of Equipment uses the effects of the Camouflage Special Skill. Refer to the description of the weapon or Equipment for more details. Camouflage Markers concealing a weapon or a piece of Equipment have a Silhouette (S) value of 2.

As stated before, it is the Camo Marker that is S2. The mine is SX. There is no way this can be different.


Then, from https://infinitythewiki.com/Mines
The Trigger Area of a Mine (whether it is a Camouflage Marker or a Mine Token) is the area within the radius of the Small Teardrop Template, extended out from the edge of the base of the Mine.

If this is not enough, nothing can be clearer.

 

Can you please explain me how you come to the conclusion that the miniature is in the trigger zone of the mine, because it is impossible for me to come to that conclusion.

 

I suppose this is not related to my post above...

Because in that case the target IS CLEARLY NOT in the Trigger Area.
Beware, it CAN happen. S5+ targets divided by the mine by a very low wall CAN be hit, but it is an edge case.

 

no, it wasn't in response to your message, it was in response to Bardulf's one.

 

Well, at least I think I've finally figured out what the OP is arguing. He's saying that to determine trigger area, you place the small teardrop template twice, in two different ways.

First, to satisfy the bullet "the Trigger Area of a Mine (whether it is a Camouflage Marker or a Mine Token) is the area within the radius of the Small Teardrop Template, extended out from the edge of the base of the Mine," you place the template's blast focus touching the base to see how far out the trigger area extends.

Then, to satisfy the very next bullet "The Trigger Area excludes any areas in Total Cover from the Blast Focus of the Small Teardrop Template," you can now place the blast focus touching any part of the camo marker's silhouette.

I can't imagine that CB intended two different placements of the template - to me it's quite clear that the blast focus is placed touching the mine's base when checking both bullet points to determine trigger area. And obviously nobody else is going to adopt the OP's idea either. But at least now I understand what he's arguing.

 

Ok, let's get through this. For this example consider the Beta as the potential target and the black blob (sorry for the ugly work) the mine.


If you place the Template ANYWHERE from the edge of the base of the mine (drawing fails apart), there is NO WAY to hit the Beta.

To hit something with a DTW, you have to AT LEAST touch the target silohuette wiithout crossing covers. And as you can see there is no way to hit.

The Trigger Area is blocked by ANY cover, something like (sorry again) that

 

The mine is still SX, it is just hidden beneath an S2 Camouflage Marker, this has been pointed out several times in this thread by multiple people now.

The Silhouette of the Marker is S2 so that mines placed with Minelayer aren't immediately obvious as mines, as has been stated before.

There is no rule that says that the mine becomes S2 anywhere.

 

But again, the Mine Rules are pretty clear.

You measure the TRIGGER AREA placing the Tempate in contact WITH THE BASE. Whatever value of S it could be treated, it is always from the base.


And the AREA OF EFFECT is the Template that again is placed in contact with the base.


Now it is your turn to ignore everything has been told and claim again that you can shot from S2.

 

And even if it did, it would still explode from its base.

 

A Chasseur (Merovingian troop) in camo state, standing, is a S2 miniature hidden by an S2 camo marker. When the chasseur uses his template weapon he can place it in contact with the border of his silhouette (S2 the Chaseur silhouette).

A mine in camo state is a piece of equipment with silhouette SX hidden by an S2 camo marker. When the mine explodes you can place the template in contact with the border of its silhouette (SX the mine silhouette).

The mine is not bigger when in camo state, the mine is never S2.

It has been said many times already.

 

It is quite impossible for me to think how reading the rulebook, someone can come to the conclusion of the "amazing mines of changing silhouette."

 

Is clear for everyone else, you just want to be right even if you are not.

You just want that somebody agrees with you so you can keep playing the way you do.

Good luck

 

[sarcastic mode ON]
The only reason I can find for the mine to change silhouette is that the mine is actually a tiny dog-warrios, with an SX silhouette, armed with a chain-cold ... that when camouflaged it transmutes and changes to an S2 silhouette
[sarcastic mode OFF]

 

It helps if you think of the mine as projecting a hologram of a camouflage figure. Or camo decoy right on top of it. It can be discovered, it can be shot at. But the actual mine needs to be seen to shoot it, and needs LoF to explode. The S2 camo is nothing more than illusion. This can be used by mine layers to make a mine look like it's an actual camo troop and make the enemy waste orders doing a discover. Especially good if you are going second and you've used a command token to take away two orders already.

 

For what it's worth, I can see why this is confusing and it really does deserve to be placed on the FAQ list.

Unfortunately the camouflage rules say the equipment is S2 rather than specifying the Marker only.
So while I do agree that the trigger area is clear (and that we can't replace "base" with "silhouette" everywhere just because we are told to do it for base contact!), this kind of has consequences for hitting the mine while it's still in camouflaged state (intuitive attacks, indirect damage from templates, etc)

 

In a more serious way than my previous message.

@bardulf I think the example you put is the following:

1.- First the «Trigger Area» (yellow zone) is verified from the SX silhouette or base of the mine (green rectangle), which makes the miniature (brown rectangle) be in that area.


2.- Once you see that it is in the «Trigger Area» then you place the template on the S2 of the camouflage marker (blue rectangle) to see that the model is not in total cover and can be affected by the detonation.




What you are not taking into consideration is that when defining the "Triger Area", the Total Coverage areas must be taken into account (in the «Verification», we could say) and you assume that since it is not in Total Coverage in the «Resolution» that It implies that it is not in the «Verification» either, but there is no possible physical way that in the «Verification» you can put the template in any way that can partially cover the silhouette of the miniature, that does not imply going through the wall.