Will IA become "true" HI someday?

I'd be hard pressed to decide whether I think Nomads or Combined is the strongest S-tier faction, but I'm personally leaning towards Combined because Nomads for all their good individual units are surprisingly one-directional.
Now, Nomad sectorials have this feeling, to me, when I try and build some actual lists I want to play as being works of love. With that said, I think the sectorial that accidentally ended up top of the food chain among sectorials is Hassassin.

But that's all vastly besides the point.

As for the topic at hand, at the moment I think IA is mainly a regular sectorial with a bunch of special options swapped out for heavy infantry. Zhanshi are the backbone of Invincible Army for various reasons, but chiefly that everything is simply put too expensive to have it any other way. To make IA be an actual heavy infantry army I don't think the LHI are the problem, but rather that the order generators and Core aren't HI at all.
It's a bit funny how the central design of ISS are better suited at running the most premium IA units (Hac Tao, Guijia, Mowang) since ISS is a lot more about building tall on fewer units, while IA could probably use some elements of ISS better than ISS does since IA is a lot more about having a decent average across all units.

 

Not what @Knauf intended but it's probably more relevant to the title of his thread than the NWI HI in the sectorial.

 

The more that I think about it though I kinda would like to see an Elite Zhanshi profile with like 3 arm or NWI and not shock immune to kinda give the IA HI feel to the linetroops of the sectoral. Now they'd price them as elite Line Troops like dakini pricing and such but it would be kinda neet to have that resiliency be throughout the army. And you probably won't see them played in competitive but as a more casual player myself it's kinda fun to imagine a regiment of Zhanshi that just have Zuyong T-Shirt armor.

 

NWI on a Zhanshi would cost more than a Dakini, and the rule alone wouldn't really be interesting enough to justify a profile or open up novel gameplay opportunities.

If you want a discount HI with stripped down statline, look to the basic combi Haidao. Or, don't, because it's not particularly useful for anything.

 

Not really relevant to anything but I just noticed the Haidao is getting charged the LI 5pt cost for CoC instead of the HI 4pt cost for CoC.

 

Interesting. Are any of its other quirks costed at LI values, or is it just the higher one from CoC?

Considering the IA exclusivity of the profile, the Daoying's resiliency and performance, and IA's access to other sources of CoC, you'd think that the CoC Haidao wouldn't mind having every edge it could get.

Very awkwardly pointless profile, IMO.

 

I wouldn't draw too many conclusions on that.
5 points = Hortlak and Haidao
4 points = Tai Sheng and Sepulchre

That's hardly conclusive when the two expensive units have a lower cost on their CoC. It might be that Tai and Sepul have a discount, just like how O-12's Alpha has a huge discount on Strategos and CT+1 (or a huge penalty on CoC) and Kaeltar have a small penalty on their CoC. I think it's more interesting how Tai and Sepul pays less for CoC among the 15+ units that have it...

It's not a bad profile at all, it's just made redundant for the Daoying being as impervious to harm as you care to make it. In almost any other sectorial (such as ISS, whose Pheasants are protected from melee but worse in every single way that counts otherwise for a higher cost) it'd be quite often used.
Honestly, Daoying and how LT orders are used in the sectorial, game, and how the meta-game is in N4; just makes the other LTs in the sectorial fairly pointless.

It would be interesting to see how the sectorial would perform if the Haidao and Zuyong were swapped around a bit to cut cost on the base line heavy infantry - Swap statline and special skills, excepting only Zero-G, would make Zuyong 6 points less expensive than they are currently and Haidao would have a more elite-feeling statline for their 6 points. Massively decreases cost of more pure-HI lists and slightly increases the typical Zhanshi-based list, though it does reduce the speed of lists relying on Zuyong Haris getting around a bit.
Unfortunately I think the over all performance of the sectorial would decrease as a result, but maybe 31 points of TacAware LHI HMG is enough of a discount to take the focus off Shang-Ji-Sus?

 

I'm working on the assumption that HI (Tai) pay less for their CoC given that it's less useful on them due to being vulnerable to Isolation, although when I type that out I do remember that the Kniggit actually isn't thanks to Veteran.

The thing that would hurt the most is the BTS loss. It comes up alot for me. Hacking, E/M, Flash pulses and crap. Every couple of games I wind up cursing the Haidao's retarded BTS 0 stat when the MSR gets stunned or something.

 

There's a lot of things ISS would kill for that other factions would toss away without a second thought.

 

"There's a lot of things ISS would kill for" sounds like a brilliant motto for that sectorial :-P.

 

BTW I thought I'd point out that you can do a true 2 wound IA if you play a 400pt. list.


──────────────────────────────────────────────────

GROUP 1 10 4
GŪIJIĂ MULTI Heavy Machine Gun, Heavy Flamethrower / DA CC Weapon. (1.5 | 82)
GŪIJIĂ PILOT Submachine Gun / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 0)
KOKRAM FTO MULTI Rifle(+1 Dam), Chain-colt, D-Charges / Heavy Pistol(+1B), CC Weapon. (0 | 36)
ZÚYǑNG (Lieutenant) Combi Rifle / CC Weapon, Breaker Pistol(+1B). (0 | 26)
ZÚYǑNG (Paramedic) Combi Rifle ( | MediKit) / CC Weapon, Breaker Pistol(+1B). (0 | 28)
ZÚYǑNG (Tactical Awareness) Heavy Machine Gun / CC Weapon, Breaker Pistol(+1B). (1.5 | 37)
TAI SHENG Breaker Combi Rifle, Chain-colt, Flash Pulse ( | TinBot: Firewall [-6]) / Heavy Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 39)
SON-BAE Yaókòng Missile Launcher / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (1.5 | 16)
SHÀNG JÍ (Tactical Awareness) AP Heavy Machine Gun, Chain-colt ( | TinBot: Firewall [-6]) / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (1.5 | 49)
SHÀNG JÍ (Tactical Awareness) Heavy Rocket Launcher, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (1.5 | 38)
SHÀNG JÍ (Hacker, Hacking Device) MULTI Rifle, Chain-colt ( ) / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (0.5 | 41)

GROUP 2 1
PANGGULING (Deactivator, Repeater) ( ) / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 8)

8 SWC | 400 Points

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I find your lack of forward skirmish elements disturbing, and the two single-wounders disappointing.

Infiltrating Army
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

10
ZHĒNCHÁ (Hacker, Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 41)
ZHĒNCHÁ (Hacker, Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 41)
ZHĒNCHÁ (Forward Observer) Submachine Gun, Panzerfaust, Shock Mines / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 35)
ZHĒNCHÁ (Forward Observer) Submachine Gun, Panzerfaust, Shock Mines / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 35)
DĀOYĪNG (Lieutenant [+1 Order], Minelayer) MULTI Sniper Rifle, Shock Mines / Breaker Pistol, CC Weapon. (1 | 34)
LIÚ XĪNG (Specialist Operative) MULTI Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 35)
LIÚ XĪNG Spitfire / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (1.5 | 38)
LIÚ XĪNG Spitfire / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (1.5 | 38)
HAC TAO (NCO) Heavy Machine Gun, Nanopulser / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (1.5 | 65)
LIÚ XĪNG Spitfire / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (1.5 | 38)

8 SWC | 400 Points

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(Yes, I realize this is predominantly NWI HI... but at least I'm hiding my single-wounder!)

 

300 points is all I need.

gMwPaW52aW5jaWJsZS1hcm15D09vcHMgYWxsIFp1eW9uZ4EsAQEJAYXaAQIAAoTvAQMAA38BCwAEfwEMAAV/AQYABoWlAQMAB38BCwAIfwEIAAmAjgEBAA==

(I'm on mobile and it doesn't let me embed lists. I'll fix it when I get home.)

 

A 300 point variant of that looks really fun to play. Maybe slightly less Liu Xing... and getting three of the panzerfaust Zhencha in place for a coordinated order with the Hac Tao seems really gross. Sadly you have to break the theme by padding out orders with rems...

Invincible Army
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

10
ZHĒNCHÁ (Forward Observer) Submachine Gun, Panzerfaust, Shock Mines / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 35)
ZHĒNCHÁ (Forward Observer) Submachine Gun, Panzerfaust, Shock Mines / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 35)
ZHĒNCHÁ (Forward Observer) Submachine Gun, Panzerfaust, Shock Mines / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 35)
HAC TAO (NCO) Heavy Machine Gun, Nanopulser / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (1.5 | 65)
PANGGULING (Hacker, EVO Hacking Device) ( ) / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0.5 | 15)
LIÚ XĪNG (Specialist Operative) MULTI Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 35)
LIÚ XĪNG Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 32)
DĀOYĪNG (Lieutenant [+1 Order], Minelayer) MULTI Sniper Rifle, Shock Mines / Breaker Pistol, CC Weapon. (1 | 34)
CHAĪYÌ Yaókòng Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 7)
CHAĪYÌ Yaókòng Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 7)

3 SWC | 300 Points

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This was my 300pts pre-cursor that I edited for 400 and more wounds:

New Infiltrating Army
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

GROUP 1 10
ZHĒNCHÁ (Hacker, Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 41)
ZHĒNCHÁ (Hacker, Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 41)
ZHĒNCHÁ (Forward Observer) Submachine Gun, Panzerfaust, Shock Mines / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 35)
ZHĒNCHÁ (Forward Observer) Submachine Gun, Panzerfaust, Shock Mines / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 35)
DĀOYĪNG (Lieutenant [+1 Order], Minelayer) MULTI Sniper Rifle, Shock Mines / Breaker Pistol, CC Weapon. (1 | 34)
DĀOYĪNG (Minelayer) MULTI Sniper Rifle, Shock Mines / Breaker Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 31)
HÙSÒNG Yaókòng Heavy Machine Gun / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (1 | 24)
HÙSÒNG Yaókòng Heavy Machine Gun / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (1 | 24)
PANGGULING (Hacker, EVO Hacking Device) ( ) / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0.5 | 15)
CHAĪYÌ Yaókòng Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 7)

GROUP 2 1 1
CHAĪYÌ Yaókòng Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 7)
WARCOR (360º Visor) Flash Pulse ( ) / Stun Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 3)

6 SWC | 297 Points

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I still haven't had an excuse to play this. The Panggolin is there to a) pretend there's Liu Xing and b) buff Husong.

 

Interesting... and of course if you have two lists you can put the Liu Xing in and out based on what you need. It's also nice to squeeze that Hac Tao NCO...

 

All memes aside 400 points really does help IA look more thematically respectable even when your focus is more on competitive edge rather than just ticking theme boxes.

One of the locals who hasn't been in for games in a while dropped by on one of our weekly sessions just to say hello and talk shit, and a common point of mockery for IA is its lack of Heavy Infantry and tendency to mostly be composed of cheaper, sub 30 point 1 wound models that thematically are more at home in something like White Banner (and I mean actual 1 wounders not even N:WI models). These days I'm willing to accept anything that takes more than 1 wound to put down is effectively tough enough to mechanically perform as HI on the table.

For example this is a list I took to a local level 300 point tournament.

List 1
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

GROUP 1 10 1
DĀOYĪNG (Lieutenant [+1 Order], Hacker, Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun ( ) / Breaker Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 30)
ZHANSHI Combi Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 11)
ZHANSHI Combi Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 11)
ZHANSHI (Paramedic) Combi Rifle ( | MediKit) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 13)
SHÀNG JÍ (Tactical Awareness) AP Heavy Machine Gun, Chain-colt ( | TinBot: Firewall [-6]) / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (1.5 | 49)
KOKRAM FTO MULTI Rifle(+1 Dam), Chain-colt, D-Charges / Heavy Pistol(+1B), CC Weapon. (0 | 36)
HǍIDÀO (Multispectral Visor L2) MULTI Sniper Rifle ( ) / Breaker Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 33)
SON-BAE Yaókòng Missile Launcher / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (1.5 | 16)
CHAĪYÌ Yaókòng Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 7)
ZHĒNCHÁ (Forward Observer) Submachine Gun, Panzerfaust, Shock Mines / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 35)

GROUP 2 3 1
LÙ DUĀN Mk12, Heavy Flamethrower(+1B) ( | Deployable Repeater) / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 24)
HÙSÒNG Yaókòng Heavy Machine Gun / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (1 | 24)
CHAĪYÌ Yaókòng Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 7)
WARCOR (360º Visor) Flash Pulse ( ) / Stun Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 3)

5.5 SWC | 299 Points

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It has 4 models that pack more than 1 effective wound. For the Heavy Infantry sectorial that's pretty fucking pathetic let's be honest but due to how the game works I felt compelled to build my lists to target opponents rather than missions. This particular list was designated to handle CA, specifically my major concerns were needing a list to throw into Shas and Avatar lists. The downside of course is this list is fuck awful against opponents such as Nomads with a distinct lack of solutions for hacking beyond a tinbot and prayers, and it also may well shit itself against hard AROs such as the Grenzer, Bolt, and Atalanta.

This has been a huge complaint about N4 for me, feeling compelled to build to at least have some kind of tool to fix problems that would otherwise shut my army out of a game which leads to so little room for flavour in lists. This particular list and its pair actually ended up being played for months straight after the tournament, I was better suited just picking one of the two at our weekly meetings instead of building a new list for a new scenario for all of April and May. Both saddening and kinda boring, I was really losing some enthusiam for Infinity over this.

However I wasn't playing this list, we were running 400 point games and as the banter kicked off about my "Light Infantry" sectorial I handed over what I was playing to the peanut gallery.


Supplies
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

GROUP 1 10 1
ZHANSHI (Paramedic) Combi Rifle ( | MediKit) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 13)
ZHANSHI (Hacker, Hacking Device) Combi Rifle ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 16)
SHÀNG JÍ (Tactical Awareness) AP Heavy Machine Gun, Chain-colt ( | TinBot: Firewall [-6]) / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (1.5 | 49)
HǍIDÀO (Hacker, Killer Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun ( ) / Breaker Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 24)
HǍIDÀO (Multispectral Visor L2) MULTI Sniper Rifle ( ) / Breaker Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 33)
KOKRAM FTO MULTI Rifle(+1 Dam), Chain-colt, D-Charges / Heavy Pistol(+1B), CC Weapon. (0 | 36)
LÉI GŌNG Shock Marksman Rifle, Nanopulser, Blitzen / Breaker Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 34)
DĀOYĪNG (Lieutenant [+1 Order], Hacker, Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun ( ) / Breaker Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 30)
SON-BAE Yaókòng Missile Launcher / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (1.5 | 16)
HÙSÒNG Yaókòng Heavy Machine Gun / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (1 | 24)

GROUP 2 5
ZHĒNCHÁ (Forward Observer) Submachine Gun, Panzerfaust, Shock Mines / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 35)
ZHĒNCHÁ (Forward Observer) Submachine Gun, Panzerfaust, Shock Mines / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 35)
ZHĒNCHÁ (Hacker, Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 41)
CHAĪYÌ Yaókòng Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 7)
CHAĪYÌ Yaókòng Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 7)

6.5 SWC | 400 Points

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This list has 8 functionally multi-wound models. For only increasing things by 100 points that's a very respectable jump, doubling in number and filling out more than half the list rather than less than a third. Having more of these more expensive and elite models, enough to fill out a core and haris fireteams got the grudging agreement that was probably enough to fit the bill of a HI sectorial.

Perhaps more importantly to me I finally have the freedom to build for missions again. This list was constructed to handle Supplies, not fight off an Avatar alpha striking the shit out of me. Which is relevant because the game we were in the middle of was just that, I was player 2 into an Avatar being piloted by one of the very people the other list was taken to a tournament to potentially face. I still had the correct tools to handle that, while also featuring the triple Zencha who had been included in the list primarily to handle early objective box running and skirmishing. Having the extra points to upgrade one of them to a hacker without feeling awful about it actually ended up paying off, as it was the one that took a run at the Avatar and isolated it turn 2.

That tournament pack had supplies in the mission list and I didn't give a flying fuck about that. Nothing I put in either list made it in there because of a mission. Everything was purely to handle opponent drops.

Meanwhile I still had Albedo in the list so I didn't have to worry about getting hard shutdown by a Grenzer, and enough of a hacking deterrent that would probably encourage most opponents just to leave that shit alone turn 1 and get some of the mission done. Overall I felt very confident about being able to focus on just playing the mission rather than needing to worry about specific opponents and whether or not I had the ability to avoid being locked out of the game from the get go.

So I find that upping the points a bit both helps me make IA sport more multi wounders and also just exist in a more well rounded state where the mission matters more than the army list. I much prefer Infinity when it's more about about PLAYING Infinity and less about did we win or lose based on our list selection.