And the ARO potential of this clunky fireteam that you don't want to overextend with is pathetic, either another Shang Ji bandaid with HRL or a mighty Zhanshi missile/msr.
I played this quite sucessfully (9:0 Quadrant Control): ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 9 3 1 GŬILÁNG (Hacker, Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Shock Mines ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 30) GŬILÁNG (Minelayer) Boarding Shotgun, Shock Mines ( | Deployable Repeater) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 27) SHÀNG JÍ (Tactical Awareness) AP Heavy Machine Gun, Chain-colt ( | TinBot: Firewall [-6]) / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (1.5 | 49) SHÀNG JÍ (Tactical Awareness) Heavy Rocket Launcher, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (1.5 | 38) SHAOLIN Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 6) TIAN GǑU 1st Section (Hacker, Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Nanopulser ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 23) ZHANSHI (Paramedic) Combi Rifle ( | MediKit) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 13) ZHANSHI (Lieutenant) Combi Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 11) ZHANSHI Combi Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 11) ZHANSHI Combi Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 11) GROUP 2 4 1 1 GŬILÁNG (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle, Flash Pulse, Shock Mines / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 26) LÓNG YÁ Panzerfaust(+1B), Flammenspeer(+1B), Submachine Gun, AP Mines / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 16) LÓNG YÁ (Minelayer) Panzerfaust(+1B), Flammenspeer(+1B), Submachine Gun, AP Mines / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0.5 | 17) SHAOLIN Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 6) SON-BAE Yaókòng Missile Launcher / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (1.5 | 16) 6 SWC | 300 Points Open in Infinity Army TianGou was masked as the Lt. loadout Jujak inside the Fireteam and the Guilang FO played the 2nd Mine.
Not sure who you were playing but they must not have knows squat about WB. The Jujak can't be in a link with Zhanshi. I take it that you didn't use the minelaying skill for the Long Ya? So if you could, with nothing changing other than fireteams, how would people make their lists? I started one but it needs work. Core team of Qo, Kai, Shaolin Haris of Jujak with wildcard Ye Mao ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 7 3 4 JING QO MULTI Rifle, Chain-colt / AP + DA CC Weapon, Breaker Pistol. (0 | 36) LIANG KAI Chain Rifle, Light Shotgun, Flash Pulse / Pistol, EXP CC Weapon. (0 | 21) SHAOLIN Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 5) SHAOLIN Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 5) SHAOLIN Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 5) Zhanshi YĪSHĒNG Combi Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 15) LÓNG YÁ Panzerfaust(+1B), Flammenspeer(+1B), Submachine Gun, AP Mines / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 16) RUI SHI Spitfire / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (1 | 23) GŬILÁNG (Hacker, Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Shock Mines ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 30) GŬILÁNG (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle, Flash Pulse, Shock Mines / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 26) GROUP 2 4 YĚ MĀO (Engineer, Deactivator) MULTI Rifle, Chain-colt, Panzerfaust, D-Charges ( | GizmoKit) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 31) JUJAK Spitfire, Heavy Flamethrower / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 32) JUJAK Breaker Combi Rifle, Heavy Flamethrower ( | TinBot: Firewall [-6]) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 30) GŬILÁNG (Lieutenant) Combi Rifle, Shock Mines / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1 | 25) 4 SWC | 300 Points Open in Infinity Army
In this case yes, my opponent didn't know much about WB and thererfore was worried about the B2 HFT which kept my Lt. close to the fireteam quite safe. But the fun thing is with the other players who know about the fireteam restrictions: some start complaining etc. and are thus distracted from the game itself, some know that this will be the TianGou and thus fear the Jammer. Only one of the two has the skill thus I didn't need to forego the skill.
Relying on your opponents' incompetence is a bad strategy. Always expect your opponent to be better and more knowledgeable than you.
White banner is just weird. If you want zhanshi LT you need at least 1 or preferably 2 other plain zhanshis with combi as decoys, add "mandatory" zhanshi hacker or 2 and Shang Jesus for Tinbot and thats it, your core is full. Lt order is wasted, core is fragile and clunky without real Aro power. Daofei LT is nice but WB has lame CoC options. Both Lei and Adil are quite expensive (coupled with 50+ point Daofei) and agains someone who knows YJ profiles they are obvious CoC based on open information. Dont even get me started on ava 4 Zhanshi Troops the BANNER in White BANNER Army... I do sometimes play WB to try the things that IA or vanilla can't do. Qo duo with Shaoiln, Ye mao harris or Zhanshi hackers core with 2-3 guilang minelayers and Son Bae. But at the end of the day these lists are gimmicky and subpar to vanilla.
I don't rely on their incompetence. The only thing I do is to play mind games with them which is IMO the sole purpose of the Holomask skill. This might mean I'm actually relying on my opponent's imagination?!
please use units and strategies of normal players and not smart missile shangji shoots them well if 2w ap bs16 hmg WITH A WHOLE PAGE OF RULES AND GEAR is not enough then nothing in the game can be you can skip on skirmishers and aro pieces in favor of a haris or rui shi but I believe that true skirmishers can dominate in active and reactive if you play them properly you have: dumb idiot lt in a fireteam 2w lt in a fireteam camo lt with swc tax camo active lt + CoC thats very good range of choices and only worse than dayioing or zulu cobra tough shit, go brute force if you cant maneuver camos or create space for parachutist, works for pano sectorials and works here somehow corregidor excels by never using LT orders (no active LTs and NCO is on a joke unit) no reason to whine here if you are so fatalistic and theorycrafted/calculated the whole game then play Ariadna and Kosmoflot and nothing else because those are tier 0 armies chosen for you by CB design team and competetively speaking you should be playing them at events as a correct choice and not whine about a competent and all-around good (but not autowin army) WB that has good synergies and good choices in every category and hits 15 useful models extremely easy only real hole in WB strategy is no eclipse or white noise but a lot of armies miss those; that can screw you on open maps but on the other hand your aro suite can dominate there all the same main aro suite is mines and Hundun + 2 long ya properly deployed hundun revealing together even with a simple zhanshi sniper can be very nasty
Guided fire is a normal strategy. Welcome to Infinity N4, guided missiles are a common threat these days. The last two events in my state 4 out of 4 players on the top table were running guided missiles. I forgot that you can't understand maths, but no, they statistically are quite poor at engaging those targets and are at significant risk of eating shit and dieing. Specifically CJC (or Nomads in general) require less order efficiency in their order pool. They have the ability to ignore and bypass hard ARO targets by simply walking past them with White Noise, and the ability to force project active attacks and ARO threats by placing long range repeaters. What takes a Tsyklon one order to achieve takes a Guilang with a Dep Rep many orders plus places the Guilang at risk of dieing through over extension.
Being able to construct a list is all fine and well, but the important question that needs to be answered is "What does this list do that isn't done better playing vanilla?". Anyone else feel that the answer to that question is usually negative when it comes to White Banner? It's like playing vanilla, but with restrictions instead of possibilities.
I feel it ultimately comes down to 'how much does a Shang Ji really need the core fireteam bonus to do what he wants to do?' Because he is the driving force behind the sectorial. And ultimately, I think he's self sufficient enough compared to what WB provides that he's more than capable of making do with the mileage and support that vanilla can provide, in addition to the myriad of other primary fighter options that are available beyond it. Practically speaking, it's not like there are any other more attractive build options that don't come back to revolve around our heavily armoured messiah. And if I were stuck on the idea of running the Shang Ji in a link, the Invincible Army does that while offering more attractive link options.
You may as well rephrase it as "what does this list do that isnt done better playing [insert tier 1 army]". If you play solely to win events reliably of course you look elsewhere, probably at Ariadna vanilla or Aleph vanilla and not waste time in YJ forum whining for buffs. There always will be an optimal choice of an army depending on meta and missions. Sectorials are historically easier to collect and easier to build. Bang bang bs13/16 5 dice, bang bang 2 dice from missile on aro instead of learning to deploy every little bastard that cant shoot back in reactive. It is a very easy and non-intensive crutch. in WB he has smoke support and chain rifle/camo bots screen - depends what approach you like and whether you enjoy msv1+smoke or 2w skirmishers and droptrooper as a solo piece it is more vulnerable than linked in reactive and it is extremely outclassed as a solo piece in vanilla by a lot of choices he is not really the driving force, but it is a very reliable crutch, just like 2w linked HMGs in other armies - you can always make your core team more defensive/aiming for turn 3 activation and spend points elsewhere
You never actually stopped to take a look at the proposal that @the huanglong made in the original post, did you? It's not a buff, it's an alteration to the way the sectorial plays. If that's not a valid discussion to have, we may as well scrap sectorials all together. And besides the point, discussing whether a sectorial treads water or is slowly drowning is also a valid discussion to have as it heavily impacts whether the sectorial is fun to play or not. Hell, the central piece of your own list that you posted (and the only reason to play that list) that you say "Bang bang bs13/16 5 dice" about he proposed to be removed from the sectorial. This is a recurring suggestion on this forum as well. It was when Shang-Ji sucked, it is now that it's got one of the best profiles of the faction. There's also the discussion about how poorly White Banner maps the way Yu Jing forces supposedly fight on Huang Di, making the more cinematic experience chafe as well.
WB's link provides next to nothing in terms of reactive support for the Shang Ji. IA gives the Haidao sniper, but WB has nothing comparable. You get burst 2 on your guns, but you still won't want anything to engage the team in a direct firefight on their terms. It's even more of a problem for WB since their poor Lt selection and low availability for link filler mean they usually have to tag their Lt option along for the ride as well, making the team even more vulnerable on the defensive. It's problematic design down to its very foundation. As far as vanilla goes, I'd argue otherwise. There are pieces that are better in certain aspects as a solo piece, but the Shang Ji fills its own niche as an independently reliable and sturdy fire piece with strong anti-armour capabilities. And thanks to Tac Aware, he's also moderately efficient, too. Thanks to Kuang Shi as an order battery, fitting him in as a secondary attacker isn't unfeasible, and his generalized competence means he should be able to leverage that reliability well to fill in gaps and attack from angles your primary offenders might be lacking.
I saw "remove Shang Ji" and laughed sorry I know it is a custom to somehow make a simultaneous argument about "fun", "flavor", "stolen units" (remind me how many sectorials use ORCs) and "worth to play competetively"/"why not vanilla" at the same time but it is nonsense. It is one or the other. More wildcards and more core/haris options is a good suggestion for list diversity, I agree there. Shang Ji HRL is only 5 points more expensive than Haidao sniper - neither stop Avatar or Sphinx for long. Force multiple AROs with Hundun (and force dealing with Long Ya first) and you would get what I'm talking about. Dragging LT along limits you but I believe that early rushing with a core team somewhere where it can be dismantled would lose you the game in most armies. You have skimishers and monks to do the cleaning job after Shang Ji deals with DZ-to-DZ shootout. You dont want to deal vs high burst in reactive but you do have a fighting chance opposed to standing solo. Su Jian beats him as mobile attacker, Hac Tao and even HRMC big chonker are way better at 32" engagements. Leave him for fireteam duty.
Except the spitfire Su Jian can't scratch an armored target in cover, and the HSG is a (fucking legendary) suicide missile. It's a fantastic trooper that can definitely compete for a slot with the Shang Ji, but they do not serve the same purpose and will compliment different lists. The Hac Tao is similarly disadvantaged against armour as well, and its considerably higher cost cements it as a primary attacker, not a supplementary one that the Shang Ji would best occupy. Compared to the Yan Huo, the Shang Ji trades one burst and BS for more mobility, strong hacking defense, a DTW, an extra order. He's got a much better kit to self-sufficiently push himself up the table and actually claim ground.
Frankly the seemingly unplanned endowment of the Shang Ji HMG with AP on it's tactical aware profile really messes with the internal balance of Yu Jing. I wrote in a different thread that bothering me how much better Shang Ji is then Yanhuo at Yanhuo shit. Also the seeming lack of any theme to the recent shang ji buffs. I sincerely wish for the Yanhuo to replace Shang Ji as the first choice for shooting things until they die. Suggestions: Shang Ji lose unexplained AP and Shock on BS attacks/weapons, terrain:total, get BS14. All Yanhuo get tactical awareness on all profiles. Double shot on the missile replacing neuro. Another buff, maybe more linkability, MSV1 or Sixth Sense
WB is a premier infowar Sectorial. It rivals nomads in oppressive hacking and offensive guided strats. Does this make sense? Not really, but it is good. Also lets laugh at the fact Shaolin box is going OOP for a single Shaolin blister.
Can someone please reverse one of those viral videos where the small child has their soft toy exchanged for a real animal?
That hurt me inside. No it doesn't, to either of those statements. Not even close. Nomads can literally place a pitcher in your DZ in one order and start spamming missiles at shit. Pitchers and Pandas are far superior to a Guilang with a Dep Rep for offensive hacking projection. Nomads also pack superior hacking devices and actually have highly valuable upgraded programs, like AP Trinity or B3 Oblivion. White Banner offers the potential for some forward deploying repeaters. Congratulations, Nomads can also do that, along with a bunch of other factions including ones like Pan-O that are decidedly mediocre at hacking.
