Yeah, I'm pretty sure Andromeda has been able to trivially auto-ARO-bait in every version and interpretation of the N4 rules thus far :-(
This. Honestly implement this change and also errata Guard to be an Entire Order Skill / ARO. Entire Order Skill as an ARO is weird but doesn't actually break anything.
Guard being an Entire Order is just a different version of berserk at that point on an expensive model that is ph 12 with no smoke or camo state. if you need to errata for Guard just make it so the skill loses the optional keyword and enemy troopers may always declare a cc attack against the owner of guard within ZoC. so guard is not a defense but a weapon both players can use.
A different Berzerk that generates the FTF and doesn't allow the user to Move but can ignore terrain issues? Yeah - that's significantly different and still quite useful.
Not to be a trainwrecker, but I fail to understand the sheer urgency of this issue. Is there some sort of tournament this week? A Satellite maybe? I mean, this issue with "declare CC to force ARO, then move to S2S" has been around since before Koni announced all CB staff would be on vacation from March 26 to April 6th, yet they made no ruling, which would seem like this issue is not as critical as it looks like. So, is there a reason this patch must be applied now, despite CB's repeated endorse of only what's in their FAQ documents, then rulebooks?
Because it seems like a knee jerk reaction. People have only just discovered the (relatively minor) interaction exists and immediately reacted like the game and maybe the world is ending, then called anyone who might consider actually playing the rule as written and intended all kinds of names, without even enough time to see how it plays in practice. As the internet is want to do. So a potential storm in a teacup without any practical evidence of being an actual problem on the table elicits an immediate and therefore likely not fully considered design response, rather than a fact based and well considered one in deliberate concert with the overall design vision of the game. Which doesn't seem ideal, or an ideal precedent. I'm ambivalent on the interaction itself, I haven't played it to form a sensible opinion. My point is, neither has anyone else - playtesters (who apparently didn't object so strongly) perhaps aside.
Sorry, I was replying to Xagroth rather than you, but that's in the very first line of the post: The evidence based and considered solution will come. This is the temporary 'keep the game playable until then' fix, because it isn't limited to CC Attack-Move Orders. But that's only part of the announcement, the other part is to confirm how ARO validity and Skill Requirements work in N4, due to a substantial number of players not being clear on that and playing as if it were N3.
I would definitely not want to see CB start caving to Internet hysteria. However, I would point out a few things: - There are two rules interactions at issue: declaring Dodge while outside LoF and ZoC (primarily to reveal hidden troopers, and to clear mines), and declaring CC Attack followed by Move to bypass a template weapon (could also be done in N3 for one extra order). - Dodge-outside-ZoC has been around since the start of N4. People have been using it. It's been clear that the rules allow it, even though some people have taken the position that it shouldn't be done because it's supposedly "gamey," and some others haven't known about it. - CC+Move has been on the Unanswered Questions list since the start of N4. Nobody has been doing it, because we haven't known whether the rules allow it. - A few days ago, @ijw confirmed that the rules allow both interactions. - @ijw has now confirmed that CB intended that Dodge-outside-ZoC be allowed, but didn't intend that CC+Move be allowed. Given all that, I don't see why @ijw shouldn't make a temporary ruling to preserve the stated intent of the rules until CB has time to look at it thoroughly. The CC+Move interaction hasn't been usable until now, and likely won't be useable in a few days once CB looks at it, so why let it be it useable just for, like, one week? Especially since he's also confirmed, again, that Dodge-outside-ZoC is allowed just like it has been throughout N4. tl;dr: The temporary rule will allow us to keep playing both interactions in the way they've been played up until now and as CB intended (Dodge-outside-ZoC yes, CC+Move no) for a few more days until CB looks it it. Seems like a reasonable step to take in this case.
Maybe 'playable' wasn't the right choice of words. But being able to ARO bait and still interact with a distant target with CC/Doctor/Engineer/'press a console button' in the same Order is not an intended outcome of the LoF Requirements FAQ. Starting again, I think part of the issue is that people are misunderstanding how 'immediate' this announcement was (it's been several days in the making), whether it's just something from me (it isn't) and whether it's just about ARO baiting (it isn't). EDIT - it's also covering an issue where posters (here and on FB etc.) have been claiming that I said the CC-Move ARO bait was an intended outcome, when what I said is that the current rules allow it due to the LoF FAQ.
It wasn't an emergency but it was an indicator of potentially big problems, not little problems that would eventually effect ITS. Being able to apply relatively good "fix" like this early on is reassuring that even if this isn't what we end up with, CB can see how rules acting uh uniformly across the board is a good thing. Yes CC troops lose a bit but if the game looks cleaner, more intuitive and less gamey, then I say the better. So again to IJW for making, at least what I perceive as a good call. And look, declaration dependent on met requirements ended up being the right way afterall, bro! Hopefully this leads to that way of thinking being applied throughout the rest of the game that doesnt already have it... you know what I'm talkin about
