Hello :) Not a rule question, but actually a suggestion. There is a lot of complaining at the moment about some rules interaction and I'd like to veer this in a more positive way and try to find some solutions and suggestions to the approach. I think I have one that might be interesting and that would simplify things greatly. What if every ARO behaved the same way, they were all declarable at any point. They were all checked at Resolution and all their mods were given at Resolution. (This would include skills that require LoF) Upsides No more "ARO baiting", it becomes impossible to force someone to declare a ARO they do not want to do More agency on the active turn, you can threaten direct template in areas that people could potentially walk through Keeps the upside of not needing to measure ZoC during the turn (unlike other suggestions to "fix" the issues) Speeds up the game, you can easily shortcut with "That guy will shoot whenever / if it sees you until the end of the order" Downsides Templates would be much stronger, you would be able to wait until the resolution to put it down, giving you more opportunities at coverage. Since you would place down template at resolution, we would need an exception that allows trooper that didn't have a opportunity do declare an ARO prior and are under the template a chance to dodge. (I believe this is the only exception we would need) Let me know if you find any other. Let me know what you think!
Some examples of current "problematic" situations and how they would be solved with my suggestion. (Trooper A is Active, Trooper R is reactive, Trooper B is also reactive) - - - - - The CC bait Trooper A declare CC attack out of LoF Trooper R can declare CC, Dodge, but not Shoot Trooper A moves into CC With the suggestion, R could've declared Shoot, and would oppose Trooper A as they engage in the same order. Both trooper have full agency on their decisions. - - - - - The MSV in Smoke bait Trooper A (has MSV and is in smoke and ZoC of Trooper R) declare Idle out of LoF Trooper R can declare Dodge, but not Shoot Trooper A shoots trooper R With the suggestion, R could've declared Shoot, and would oppose Trooper A as they engage in the same order. Both trooper have full agency on their decisions. - - - - - The cancelled direct template that could've been good Trooper A declares Move Trooper R declares shoot with a direct template weapon, but Trooper A is barely out of range Trooper A moves closer to trooper R, in the area that the direct template would've been and doesn't take any damage With the suggestion, R would've only placed down his template at the resolution and would've been able to clip Trooper A, giving him full control over his BS Attack. - - - - - The cancelled impact template that could've been good Trooper A is next to one of your friendly troopers and declares anything (not relevant) Trooper R declares shoot with a impact template weapon, but the friendly trooper next to A cancels the blast Trooper A moves further away from the friendly trooper With the suggestion, R would've only placed down his template at the resolution and would've been able to hit trooper A without clipping the friendly trooper, giving him full control over his BS Attack.
Helois put a poll up about this exact question on WGC a month or so ago, and the community was something like 60/40 against it because nerds are closet NIMBYs who fear change. (But I dig it.) Edit: in full fairness, it was actually 55/45 depending on how you account for a weird side-question about people wanting to be able to hold ARO specifically against models in zero vis zones in zone of control as a patch specifically for speculo + ko dali lists (which is possibly the most gamer design suggestion I have ever read).
Too many people would get no ARO performed and leave a sour taste in their mouths cause it would allow active turn players even more opportunity to invalidate their opponents AROs. Best option is the most simplest. Game wide rule that you cant declare a skill without its requirements first being met and at th ed very least, AROs can premeasure. IJW said this way was absolutely not what CB wanted. I believe its because they they lose a little bit of that idea of everything happens at the same time but a game that functions smooth and most things happen at the same time. Wait till next week, I'm certain CB is like damn and I'm certain CB has rational minds in their midst. Not everyone attempting to be evil geniuses trying to break the laws of reality.
I'm pretty increasingly of the opinion that CB's aversion to limited premeasuring was a miscalculation. I've played in other systems that have had rules that are the equivalent of being able to measure your ZOC at any time for any reason, and it functions well mechanically. Introducing full premeasuring into the game is something I can see the argument against (the adjustment period for a game that transitions from partial to full premeasuring is historically a pretty awkward puberty as players go a bit nuts for a year or so trying to measure everything, all the time, forever) but it's an unusual recalcitrance on CB's part given they introduced a very smooth premeasurement mechanic in N4's movement rules.
Can you explain how you could invalidate your opponent ARO with that suggestion? The entire point of the suggestion is that there would be no way for your opponent to invalidate your ARO.
It's not a guarantee to happen any given order but what it would be is alot of pussy footing... If the reactive player doesn't give the ARO the active player wanted, the active player just wont step out. As you said, giving some power to the reactive player. People will play things very procedurally in order to accomplish the smallest task in a five turn while the ARO can still be found out to be invalid at the Resolution step. Unless I'm reading it wrong and it's really that Declaring your ARO can come at the end of the order in your suggestion? I dont think that's what your saying. But if it is, then it creates even more power in ARO and camo has a whole new problem.
What I'm saying is you would declare the ARO when you have a chance to declare an ARO. But you'd also be allowed to preemptively declare ARO (just like you can right now with ZoC), but for any kind of ARO. This is of course not mandatory. You can just wait to see if you have an ARO. It would act both as a shortcut, and as a wait to completely remove any form of bait ARO. It would streamline ARO declaration so that they all act the same would. It would make it so your opponent can never invalidate any of your ARO, because you have full agency over your declaration and are never locked into lesser choices.
Okay, I do enjoy freedom of choice, in what ways do you imagine the amplified reactive power effects the game though? I ask because I really see this pushing some sectorials or factions out of the game because their individual troops are less elite and their active turn effectiveness had been reduced. Since nothing like this has been done in the game before, not ground breaking but always being able to shoot might be too good for some. Wasn't IJW saying something about BS attacks need to meet requirements when declared for some reason? I just cant remember what. Your suggestion may have unforeseen consequences and so I say you put it to the test of the forumers. All the scenarios we applied to the official rules and then some applied tonyours. Who knows, you might have cracked the code, I'm still concerned about balance though.
That's why I made this post, so people can come up with detailed explanation of how it would change the outcome. I already posted a few examples and analysis. (I think I covered the main dynamics) The main change would be to remove any form of ARO baiting, where the reactive turn has absolutely no agency on their decision and cannot do anything. It would remove areas where you can prevent your opponent from acting by denying their ARO. In my opinion, the reactive turn is a joke right now and the active turn is stronger than ever. Traditional ARO are a great way to lose a game and give your opponent a free advantage.
Allow measuring the Active Trooper's ZOC and Hacking Area between the First and Final Coherency Check (ie after the first Short Skill is declared in Step 1.3 and after Step 6.2). Make AROs required to be valid at Declaration. Check requirements at Declaration. Done.
Couldn't people just learn not to hug the corners so tightly when playing against good melee users? If I'm going up against jsa and putting my guys right by a corner but not looking out to aro then that's my fault when a crazy samurai or ninja comes around that corner and kills me.
If there isn't any place around your TAG for a S0 marker to be in total cover within 4", your TAG is probably in a place that is way too open.
Mines, Koalas, layered AROs, MSV AROs, TO AROs. Sacrificial Warbands that are difficult for him to just ignore. Nothing has changed. He's just ~1order more efficient per CC engagement.
I'm probably fine with that. We still have plenty of counter play options. We definitely have to be mindful of positioning on the terrain against JSA and melee focused factions
I feel like JSA has gained alot but subtly. Nothing immediately jumps out at you when you look at JSA and have the "damn..." reaction but you keep reading and bits and pieces start forming little 1-2 combos, and you're like, "could I win a tournament with this..." Like Shikami or Kitsune on a roof, Dodge or CC+ MOVE... engages someone from the top of their Silhouette, standing on the wall, no shots fired, is like the predator.
