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Is this healthy for the game?

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Zewrath, Nov 17, 2020.

  1. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    That Raicho has NCO, the 4 extra points is NCO. Otherwise it's the same cost as the base Raicho at 73.
     
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  2. Delta57Dash

    Delta57Dash Well-Known Member

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    Technically NCO is 2 points (see: Mowang, Ectros, etc.), but that would still put it at 75 without the NCO (3 extra points).

    EDIT: Ignore this, NCO is more expensive on TAGs (see Zeta, Squalos). This would put that Raicho without NCO at 73.
     
  3. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    You say this, but you have to understand, they can be made much closer in power than they are right now.

    It's also dramatically easier to hit an Isolate on an HI than kill it, in most cases, since most HIs are good at firefighting. So your reasoning as to why people find Oblivion overpowered is wrongheaded, in my estimation.


    Or they could use Carbonite in the Active Turn, instead of just using Oblivion on everything.


    No, I mean almost nobody was complaining they were overpowered, which is a fiction you made up.

    Citation needed on that one.



    Isolation may be slightly less powerful than it was, but Oblivion is, overall, much more powerful. I don't think that's up for debate. If you feel like you're getting less done with Oblivion in N4 than in N3, I don't know what to tell you.
     
  4. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Which posts in particular are you talking about, here? This thread seems fairly civil.
     
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  5. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Ah right, that is true, thanks for pointing that out.

    Still don't think the Lizard is very terrible, though, just the Raicho being objectively great. (Now, given the topic and debate at hand, I don't think the Raicho needs a nerf, I just wish I had one, okay?)
     
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  6. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    Yeah, the Raicho went from probably being the objectively worst vanilla TAG to being very interesting and flexible when it got its new loadouts in N3, and they applied a bit more polish in N4. Of course, that just means that the Lizard and Guijia are now competing for the title of objectively worst vanilla TAG. Much like HI, the problem is that some original N1 designs are too boring and don’t bring enough tools to stand up to more recently designed units and justify their high points costs.
     
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  7. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    This is a very solid and pretty basic idea. I would expand it to any one EVO program for a command token as Strategic Use. Single EVO programs being available before the game started in N3 was not at all unbalancing.

    This is a really, really cool idea. I'd rather see Meta-Chemistry than Booty for pure flavor/effect purposes. Potentially unbalanced maybe with Regeneration +3 PH, or Dogged + Total Immunity. That would be curve-blowing on a heavy TAG.

    But it would be potentially balanced on either a light TAG, a S5 HI, or a TAG with a special proviso that the thing is PH 11 for Metachemistry purposes, like they handle Gizmokits etc.

    The upside to Bakunin clearly needing work is that there is design space for stuff like this.
     
  8. Melkhior

    Melkhior Doing filthy things for EI

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    Guijia was also updated in N4 and now she has super-jump, MA2 CC22 and DA CCW. I would say Lizard won this competition.
     
  9. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Lizzie is fine. She's literally "the standard Manned MBT".

    Only reason the HGL is "bad" this edition is because Guided is stupidly good and it's harder to spam Morlocks as escorts.
     
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  10. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    Troof.

    The GL on the TAG is actually pretty dang useful in a faction with the Meteor. The GL on the Lizard is a contingency tool to combine with a forward repeater. Between the AD remote and a Zero with deployable repeater, you have a decent splatmaker that doesn't cost additional SWC that otherwise goes unused like a smart missile launcher.

    Admittedly it's mainly a choice to take if your opponents hate you for being TFGNomad with the missile launcher, and you want people to still want to play against you.

    Meteors continue to be one of my favorite things about Bakunin. I used/abused them with Sat-Lock in N3: a minefield of Ariadna camo markers filled me with glee, not fear. It sucked when that went away with N4: I really think it was just under-used, not underpowered. Now with Spotlight and Oblivion being potentially abusive as this thread demonstrates well, Meteors are still great, and even easier to use.
     
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  11. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    This seems like a really good idea. Can anyone point out whether this would be flawed?
     
  12. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    Ah ha, yeah, I forgot that the Guijia got upgrades in N4.
     
  13. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Sat Lock was stupid good in N3. The fact that Meteor + Lizzie + EVO was 3.5 SWC did hurt though.

    And yeah, GL Lizzie is a way to go "I still want to make my opponent fear Targetted, but also want to run a TAG".

    Lizzie's issues are just Manned TAG issues and less so because B3 BS14 Gizmokits are a thing. So it's fine she's boring: you don't really run her because she's exciting, you run her because the whole TAG + Support package is very cool.
     
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  14. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    Between Veteran and Immunity AP, it can functionally ignore a lot of the most common anti TAG tools in the game.



    I don't expect BJC to get a look in for a year two when their turn for a rework comes up, and there entire sectorials that are in more of a need to get looked than BJC's minor tweaks (Like MO will inevitably need it's 5th rework next year in place of one of the Ariadnan sectorials).
     
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  15. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Doesn't actually stop the Lt ISO play: you can avoid triggering valid AROs once the Lt is ISO.

    The issue isn't that ISO is -9 and IMM is -3 it's that Carbonite is B2 DAM14 DA and Oblivion is B2 DAM16 AP - which means decent BTS isn't a deterrent to Oblivion. VS a WIP13 BTS9 Target a WIP13 HD has a 41.31% chance of Oblivion or a 33.65 % chance of Carbonite. Vs BTS6 they're roughly equivalent (with a very slight edge to Oblivion: 46.77% vs 45.67%). And vs BTS3 Carbonite pulls ahead (49.29 vs 53.50%).

    Honestly, Command Token to start with Supportware up?
     
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  16. SpectralOwl

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    Carbonite's DAM13 on just about everything, not even sure there's an upgrade for its damage out there yet, so odds are worse than the above.
     
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  17. Rejnhard

    Rejnhard Well-Known Member

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    Removing two orders is so valuable that I don't know if this would measure up, unless against counterintelligence, but if nothing else it's a very clean, nonintrusive solution to test and maybe even keep as a house rule if it checks out.
     
  18. 1337Bolshevik

    1337Bolshevik Let them eat repeaters

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    Rachio has crit immunity, not AP immunity. It's a fine Tag, better than a lizard but that's how it should be.
     
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  19. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Oops. I derped.

    But yeah. The point is that it's balanced that at BTS6 Oblivion just outperforms Carbonite.

    Shifting them both to DAM14 would make Carbonite better vs BTS6 and Oblivion only better vs BTS9. Which would make it much more of a "what effect do I want?" question than it is right now. Right now it's "Oblivion is the better option almost always".

    But that's less to do with power and more to with providing options. Oblivion - on its own - isn't really an issue.
     
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  20. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Nah, mate, most TAGs are just fine, no losers among the piloted TAGs, IMO :)
     
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