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Is this healthy for the game?

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Zewrath, Nov 17, 2020.

  1. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Sure, but not everyone could benefit the same way. Hassasins for example investing in KHDs and AHDs were basically sitting in the position of "well I just paid for more expensive specialists that could've been cheaper FOs". What would they take an EVO to overclock for? To improve the AVA1 Fanous?

    Regardless of balance in that it also felt bad to invest to play the hacking game.... and then not actually get to play the hacking game. Felt a bit like a bait and switch. I like the idea behind making hacking more ubiquitous in N4 I just think CB botched the execution on it badly.
     
  2. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Well, it ties into what you're saying where the way to deal with the threat of an expansive hacking area is marker state (camouflage). But I've found that the changes to shotguns provide the preferred way of dealing with scary MSV pieces. Last game I played, it took 3 troopers, but I killed an Aquila by suiciding midfielders with template weapons into it. I used a Grunt infiltrator, a Foxtrot BSG, and a Hardcase, the last of which took it down, but together they cost less points than the Aquila, *and* I took out some other troopers in the process.

    I don't find I respect the Australian podcasters on this topic.
     
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  3. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    Guy's give it a rest with the language and comparisons...
     
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  4. Delta57Dash

    Delta57Dash Well-Known Member

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    I love USARF but they have some... interesting... limitations.

    Like, for example, looting and sabotage. The number of Anti-Materiel CCWs in the faction is stupidly low:

    Rosie and Dozers have D-Charges.
    Wild Bill has a Multi-Pistol.
    Unknown Ranger has a T2 CCW.

    Aaaaannnnndddd that's it! 3 characters and the standard Engineer are your only hopes of blowing up an AC2.

    The faction has a very strange aversion to D-Charges and ZERO DA CCW's. It's one of the strangest limitations I've seen in a sectorial.

    I wish they'd give the 6th Airborne/Foxtrot FO's D-Charges like some factions get, because right now they are severely hamstrung in these scenarios.
     
  5. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    In N3 hacking didn't work, not because some poeple could bring unhackable lists (that can happen too now, but with a few options thanks to marking). But because a lot of extra things.

    It was not reliable. Khd were too powerfull. It needed a lot of investment for it to be reliable, but then it became opresive against HI focused. There were a lot of ways to bypas it. HD were left to a support remotes role, not hacking. And the effects were easy to shake except for isolation, which effects in the game were not as crippling as some people think of.

    Some of those have changed in N4, but not dissapeared. Immobilized become harder to pull, isolation easier. Pitchers and repeaters are the same, but KHD don't ignore firewall, which was something needed. A lot of programs were lost and some changed users, bringing oblivion as an option for those hackers that were mainly used for support. The few new things we have in N4 is that there are more tinbots, removing the need of so much fairy dust (which some people tend to forget still exists).

    Without acknowledging how powerful hacking should be, is difficult to get to a middle point on how to treat N4 hacking

    PD: repeating that a faction with average BS (not top, not bottom) with not so much visual modifiers (or at least as much as others), and usually in more expensive than others to get the same modifiers is top tier, seems wrong.
     
    #705 Armihaul, Mar 17, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2021
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  6. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    You're not alone in that regard, I have a good laugh at /tg/ referring to Australia as "Tutorial Island".


    USARF's camo markers are pretty low quality, they were designed around quantity which is unfortunately not really a thing as much anymore. The big complaint is the faction is brittle. Go second? You're in real danger of the Unknown Ranger getting picked off, link getting dismantled and forward skirmishers getting picked off or zoned out by perimeter weapons.

    Regular thing that pops up in local discussion is that USARF is heavily reliant on the game being absolutely perfect. They're brittle as fuck in the sense that they're 1 F2F roll away from shit dominoing out of control. They lack a reliable plan B. Did your opponent just tank your suicide skirmishers, or some of them screwed their infiltrate rolls? You don't have that safety net of some chonky ass beatstick to start mowing things down to open the field up or pitcher calling in a precision strike to eliminate problem models.
     
  7. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    I disagree, but we're veering widely off topic. Let's move on.
     
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  8. elTzimmy

    elTzimmy Active Member

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    Apologies – I either wasn't clear, or you didn't understand my point well enough. I was developing your option of giving stuff like Assisted Fire as a way to buff hacking, instead of raw stats. Lateral growth, instead of outright spikes in "raw strength" (which repeaters should be counted as, but whatever).

    So, my point was that what you quoted from me is the natural development of your option of having a lot more of supportive hacking, instead of raw stats. Which you've then gone and said is not viable, thus agreeing with my point.

    Hacking is too strong, except when it isn't. Got it.
    If your point is that you shouldn't be wrecked by anyone, just because you're a one trick pony, because "hard counters are lame", I disagree. A very fine scalpel will be hella fragile, as it should, to the appropriate counter – a gentle touch in the wrong direction.

    So… maybe your meta needs to be a bit more diverse?

    I admit I haven't played Warmachine. Do you feel this is what's happening in Infinity?

    Not instead, but along with. If you want to just play whatever and have everything be viable the same way, every time, at some point you're going to complain that faction X or Y does mission 1 or 2 worse than others. And when that's done, you'll complain that you can't do the mission the same way another faction does, because that cuts down on choices on how to play the faction.
    If you want a level playing field, you'll need a reskin of the same stats, not asymmetry.

    I'm not, though. I pointed out that they're worse, not that they should be. I don't think playing sectorial offers enough advantages to the loss of choice and diversity which allows you to deal with a wider range of threats.
    However, the truth is that you're (as a player, not you specifically) always making choices on what's good and bad and what's viable. It will never happen that everything is viable.

    I'm misinterpreting the concept exactly as you describe it, while you then go on to describe a specific use of the term, in a specific situation, that I should have predicted.

    This very much feels like you're saying something along the likes of: Gear check is bad, but only my specific gear check definition. Otherwise it's good. Stop misrepresenting gear check, by representing exactly what it is and instead use my definition to come to the same conclusion that I do.

    I mean… I don't even know what to say to this.

    Despite the fact that an AP Trinity Ninja would also have AP against smaller BTS units, thus rendering the BTS of those units really bad and the Ninja (a lot more) skilled at dispatching all hackers. Sounds like you want to nerf Interventors.

    Gear checks define all games, everywhere, in the sense that they're the reason why something is strong or weak, besides stats. It's a matter of having alternative ways to combat the hackers, and not beating them at their own game.

    Oh, wow. Ok. Cool.
    The analogy doesn't so much bother me as I just find it crude as you're passing judgment on the propriety of sexual relations. But if you don't like butt stuff, that's up to you. I mean… should I compare you to a twat waffle, given your raging throughout this thread, just because it'll make you uncomfortable and that would be "the point"?
    Can we get a mod to intervene on what exactly are the appropriate analogies and comparisons with sexual content? Because hey, a twat, waffled or not, is still a cunt and if assfucking is an alright analogy, then that should be fine. Especially if it bothers you.

    Again, going by your reasoning.

    [Edit]
    Just saw the mod post. Sorry about that.
    [/Edit]
     
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  9. SubOctavian

    SubOctavian Well-Known Member

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    Feedback: no, these options are fine, and it's good that there is variety in the game, including some stronng firepower focus pieces.
    I love the direction the game is going, generally, and I hope the devs will filter the feedback from these forums very well before doing anything. I'd rather have them following their ideas and creative vision of the game than entitled complaints :-)
     
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  10. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    If they listen to the hugbox that is WGC they'll have more unearned confidence than you can get from a kilo of cocaine.

    What does a non-entitled complaint look like to you? Or do you think any criticism of CB is verboten?
     
  11. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Oh sure, I understand now. Yes that'd be a way to do things you'd just have to balance the order tax is all. TacAw hackers to help them cycle buffs would help too.

    That's the exact problem of list chicken. N4 was pushing for hacking to be a viable option and to always feel impactful, but if people are actively encouraged to play hard counters to it, it doesn't function as desired.

    It doesn't matter how diverse archetypes are the problem is when people are encouraged to build archetypes that utterly hard counter each other. You want as little as List A clearly crushes List B due to archetype and (failed) gear checks in the game as possible. That's causes list chicken and it's really, really, bad.


    Yes, I keep telling you this. The fact that we are starting to see people build hard counter lists because they feel the urge to subvert a metagame with a hard counter list is essentially the start of this train wreck unfolding. It is a shitshow, it creates bad gameplay experiences, it's not somewhere we want to go. My local meta was run by the literal #2 warmachine player in the world, so our local meta consistently revolved around the cutting edge of the competitive meta and we got a very good close up look to how it ticked away under the hood. List chicken was fucking awful, you do not want this coming to Infinity.

    Not only did it make for utterly brain dead boring games that were decided before deployment, it also chased new and casual players out of the game like an absolute mother fucker. It's a testament to exactly how much energy our local guy put into the game and networking with the community to keep it alive, because it did not get new players into it. The LGS still has some of the same stock as they had when they opened years ago, that's how dead player growth was across 2 editions of the game.

    Nobody is expecting perfect balance here, they're making a point that the game as it stands is extremely unbalanced to the point that it needs fixing. Last edition Uprising made people in my meta quit the game, this edition it's hacking being utterly out of fucking control for some factions that's causing these problems.


    It disproportionately affects weaker hackers compared to the stronger hackers. BTS0 like another Ninja? Literally no effect from AP. BTS3? You lose 1 BTS. It only starts really kicking in noticeably against the tougher boys who are 6 or higher.

    The preferable option is to make a whole separate program that is clearly statistically inferior to Trinity against low BTS hackers compared to 6+ hackers, but as a possible solution AP Trinity for more factions that really really need it isn't an unworkable partial solution.


    I'll say it again if helps you understand TL;DR Gear checks ok, Gear checks defining games bad. Two different things. You do not want gear checks to consistently decide games before they start. That is a sign your game's gear checks are too stringent, too hard to reliably meet.

    Go for it, express yourself as you see fit.
     
    #711 Triumph, Mar 17, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2021
  12. Aldo

    Aldo Spare 15

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    And considering Galicia is one of the main european entry ports for drugs, they might also have a kilo or two just in case.
     
  13. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    But is it the cut rate Mexican stuff, the better Colombian, or the primo Bolivian (Chapare > Yungas)?
     
  14. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    I do not know why I need to quote myself, either way cut it off now.
     
  15. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    This is part of the problem with the internal balance of hacking at the moment, Oblivion is KING, it's basically a more oppressive and bullshit version of N3's redrum, as it is just hands down superior to every other offensive hack (carbonite is a joke).

    If there's interventors near fireteams they should probably be in the fireteam.

    I had mary in a 5 order group by herself, she use 2 to walk into position, another 2 to drop as pair of repeaters, 1 to Iso joan, and 2 to kill de fersen (AP trinity is actually worth a damn). There wasn't any tinbot as they were relying on fairy dust from an EVO (post game we did talk about how they should just ditch de fersen in favour of a santiago).

    Anyway the remainder of my plan was now that they were LOL'd was to push the szalamdra up the "weak" flank then gun down the army from a more or less enfilade position, anyway TAG got double crit by an OS with a HRL and burned to death, so I had the interventor brick the entire link out of spite (roughly 4/5 orders), and then repositioned some stuff as I had nothing better to do.

    Kind of an irrelevant point.
    On lower BTS units they either have zero, so the AP does nothing or they have 3 at which point the AP is only knocking off one point so it really doesnt affect them.
    The current Trinity already shits on the low BTS hackers as its the only things it can kill with any amount of reliability to be worth doing, so you can see why the argument of "it makes low end hackers more vulnerable" is pointless, they were already incredibly vulnerable. So as it stands the top end is more or less untouchable and the bottom end is still getting treated the same way like they were in N3.
     
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  16. elTzimmy

    elTzimmy Active Member

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    I can see how it's less relevant against lower BTS. I'll still point out something that was a big part of my previous argument, in that the Ninja are far better at facing hackers with CC, than playing at hackerman against dedicated units. An arms race seems like a fruitless move, whereas finding ways to hit it from the side seems a bit better.
     
  17. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    Then what's the point of the hacker profile beyond being an expensive specialist? and again as pointed multiple times previously, while there maybe ways to take them down via other means that only works in the active which is fine if you go first. but if youre going second that CC is going to about as useful as the KHD its carrying and by the time you get to use the hacker has already done their damage.

    pointing out that there other ways to deal with hackers like CC and AD or what have you (with the exception of imp where you can start with a gun to their head), is as stated previously a stupid argument as the main point was giving you a way to defend yourself in a meaningful way from GML spam and by extension hacking, which active turn tools are incapable of doing.
     
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  18. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    The problem is that an Interventor can be as difficult to roust out as a squishy Lt - and often is a squishy Lt. They're going to be the most protected trooper in the enemy army against anything except hacking. If you have the kind of positional control necessary to take them out, you've secured a massive edge somehow.
     
  19. Red Harvest

    Red Harvest Day in, Day out. Day in, Day out. Day in, DAY OUT

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    Sigh. Am I the only one who remembers when "Fine Colombian" referred to marijuana? (e.g. the Steely Dan song "Hey Nineteen") Cocaine ruined everything. Lousy Bolivian marching powder.
     
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  20. SubOctavian

    SubOctavian Well-Known Member

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    Come on guys, as much as I love dark humor it's not appropriate for these forums at all. Discuss silk in Haqq section instead! :yum:
     
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