Up 2.5 cm, down 12.5 cm. The same with Climbing Plus. C+ allows you to short skill Climb and ARO while you stay on the wall.
Seems like the meta-question is whether the balustrade counts for the total distances you climb? IMO it depends and the outside of it does in both cases - can't vault during the Climb Entire Order! Climb: Snap to the outside of the balustrade paying 2,5cm for the silhouette height but ignoring the balustrade width, move down the remaining 7,5cm, stop 2,5cm above the ground, end of Entire Order skill. Climb+: vault up the balustrade for 0,3cm, Move down 9.7cmcm on the outside, stop with silhouette 2,8cm above the ground, end of Short Movement Skill Move. Note: Climb has a "free" snap-to movement when you reach the top or bottom of what you're climbing. Had the building been without balustrade an Entire Order Climb would've reached the ground level.
Vault is in the General Movement Rules - why can't you vault during the Climb Entire Order? have I missed something. My preferred solution for C+ to treat the whole thing like it's horizontal movement: For Climb I'd give the 0.3mm width of the balustrade for free and just call it 10cm.
Sorry, I meant to say that you can't vault at the start or end of a climb order because the rules do not really support movement there. Also, in the climb+ situation you've angled the terrain to be functionally completely different (not least because you've basically made it impossible to stand on the side of the balustrade which is certainly possible for a climbing model), and you've opened up the need to explain why you can't vault over other stuff, such as basically clipping through the building in a vaulting movement (i.e. what's so different between a balustrade and the wall?).
Sorry - I thought the diagram was clearer than it apparently was - the terrain is the same as the first image. I've just rearranged it to show how I'm thinking about it: basically the way I think about the wall for C+ is "if I laid this all flat somehow, what would it measure". It's this: And yes it is deliberately treating the <SIL obstacle on top of the wall as distinct from the wall. Which we HAVE to do to declare Climb at all because RAW the answer is "You can't Climb down that wall from that position, you're not B2B with it." On pretty much every piece of terrain I've played on (I literally can't think of one this isn't true for) it's very easy to tell the difference between protuberances like balustrades and the surface you move on. My argument is the intent of the General Movement Rules is that you measure the surface you move on, not the protuberances. So 10cm to Climb it and 12.8cm for C+. Which is exactly the same as if the balustrade wasn't their to Climb it and just the width of the balustrade additional for C+. // Would the answer to the question change if the balustrade was less than the diameter of a base high?
Yes, but by angling the balustrade when you flipped it, you radically changed the terrain and how the rules would interact with it*. The first possible spot a climbing miniature could stand after the obstacle is once it's 2,5cm down the balustrade so that the balustrade is supporting the base, so that's the position that the vaulting movement have to end in. By flipping the balustrade you're suggesting that the unit can't be supported by the balustrade and can therefore vault over a flat surface that can in fact support a climbing miniature. A more analogous vertical situation is for the balustrade to be replaced with vertical barbed wire in that case (can't stand there, but if you're vaulting over it you still need to pay the movement). * The situation where there is a overhang sticking out and how you start climbing is meriting a question, IMO.
Forgive my crude illustration, but the red line depicts the surfaces where you can legally stand using the Climb skill, so my counter-question is why you purport that it's allowed to gain free movement past that surface. The flip also describes what a vertical analogy would look like - yes vaulting would let you get to the height, but then...
You wouldn't technically add the 0.3 because you can't stand there and walk that distance, as it doesn't support half of the base. That's actually the only part that gets "vaulted". This is the only setup that allows a full vault.
That's against General Movement Rules. Where the 0.3 would count, but the first 2.5 to get up on the parapet would not, same as if there was flat horizontal ground on the other side. The question is if the 90° flip to continue moving matters. Imo RAW is 0.3(horizontal)+2.5(down)+10(down), the first 2.5(up) are free since you continue moving afterwards thanks to C+ and end the Move in a legal position (vertically on the wall).
You're never climbing with C+, you're using Move. Wouldn't it be fun if C+ and Climb worked different here and made C+ even better?
I meant without C+ just Climb. Then you have to go up the barricade, not on the barricade as it's too thin, down the wall, right?
An overhang that is less than SIL height can surely be vaulted. The Neovatican doesn't make sense in a world where you can't have vaulted ceilings./jk Basically you're saying for C+: Move to the edge of the building and then flip it on its side and measure it like you would horizontal terrain until you get to the ground? And for Climb, starting as close to the edge as is legal, then measure from the top of any terrain on the edge of the wall to the bottom of the wall like would would horizontal terrain? I think you're saying this: For Climb. 1. For the declaration to be legal the model must be as close to the edge as it is legal for it to be and less than SIL height away 2. Flip it 90 degrees so that the leading part of the SIL's face is touching the highest point of the terrain between its starting position and the edge of the wall. 3. Measure from the leading pat of the SIL's face to the ground. 4. Any horizontal protuberances less than the SIL's height can be vaulted. This gives an answer or 12.5cm to Climb. For C+. 1. First Move to the edge of the wall, measuring movement in the horizontal plane and vaulting vertical protuberances 2. Once the leading part of the SIL is abutting (or superjacent to) the edge of the wall, flip it 90 degrees, pivoting around the leading part of the base edge. 3. Measure from the leading pat of the SIL's face to the ground. 4. Any horizontal protuberances less than the SIL's height can be vaulted. 5. Measure the Trooper's base diameter in the horizontal plane, and then place the C+ on the ground. 6. Continue moving along the horizontal as per normal. So 15.3cm
Yup, I believe that's the most correct answer according to the rules I've read and the more informal answers we've gotten up to this point. A Climb+ (or ladder) doesn't climb (or in case of the ladder; walk) quite as far as an Entire Order Climb, but on the other hand it's a short skill.
Am I the only weirdo who considers that to be unnecessary complicated, and would prefer to see thin barriers—basically anything you could vault if it was on the ground instead of a roof edge—treated as permeable for the purposes of measuring this stuff? For one thing, this incentivizes players who like Climbing Plus to buy terrain with teensy tiny ridges around the edges of rooftops to provide cover without impeding their speed, and players who don’t like it to buy high-balustrade roofed terrain for their tables. For another, trying to explain it to someone is like an anti-endorsement of the game. I can imagine the “why would anyone play this?” expressions already.
Let's all be weird together. As it is I already advocate 50-70mm as the ideal for a single level building. Single Entire Order Climb or Single Short Skill C+ to get up.
In extension it's one of the reasons why 4" Superjump is so royally screwed right now. If you could vault parapets on the way up and down, 4" Jump/Superjump would actually still work as a mobility Skill in N4. But that would be too easy. So we get Stealth FAQs inventing previously non existent Rule interactions instead. ;)
